Ken Kunken

Ken Kunken broke his neck playing football for Cornell University in 1970, leaving him almost totally paralyzed from the shoulders down. Ken went on to get multiple degrees after his recovery, became an assistant district attorney for over 40 years, and now an author of the book, "I Dream of Things That Never Were: The Ken Kunken Story." You can find Ken's content and book on his website kenkunken.com.

Transcript

Intro Song

Rob Valincius: Oh, happy Thirsty Thursday, everybody. This is Rob Valencius, the host of the Drink O'Clock podcast. And I have the pleasure of having with me, uh, Ken, can I call you Ken, or do

Ken Kunken: No, Ken is what I prefer.

Rob Valincius: Awesome. Ken Kunkin, welcome to the show,

Ken Kunken: you so much. Thank you for having me.

Rob Valincius: Now, now I have a long list of things here. Now, um, can you broke your neck playing football? Which, um, you know, obviously football is a dangerous sport. It doesn't matter what year you were playing it in. And I'm sure even in the seventies, it was probably 10 times worse because there's a lot less rules, uh, than there are now.

Um, and so that left you totally paralyzed from the shoulders down, right?

Ken Kunken: Pretty much.

Rob Valincius: Before I get to any of this, you know, any of your accomplishments, I mean, right there in most cases, you know, a lot of people would just give up, right? Um, but, but you didn't. I mean, you've, you've accomplished more things than probably anyone I've, I know personally and people that I've interviewed on the podcast, which is, I mean, that's an attestment to, uh, you know, you, your persona and, and kind of what you went through.

But, um, you ended up, um, graduating from Cornell. You were the first, uh, you were the first

Ken Kunken: First quadriplegic. First quadriplegic.

Rob Valincius: Quadriplegic to graduate from Cornell, um, and you what, you got a master degree of

Ken Kunken: Well, I, right. So that was a graduate degree. I'm also the first quadriplegic. To earn a graduate degree from Cornell as well. My undergraduate degree, my undergraduate degree was in, in industrial engineering and my graduate degree was in counseling and student personnel administration,

Rob Valincius: Yeah, I, um, that's something I, I really psychology and, um, things like that. I really, really dug in college. I took, I mean, it's where I met my fiance, you know, 13 years ago. Um, you know, I, I love, uh, helping people. Now I work in insurance, uh, so I'm not doing as much of that, but I work with the elderly. So I, I help a lot of, uh, elderly with medicare and, uh, you know, kind of guiding them to, you know, medicare's all, you know, screwed up and it's, they make it very difficult for people to understand.

So it's kind of what I deal with on a regular basis. But back to you, uh, you know, you, um, you got a lot of awards and accomplishments, uh, you went, you got your law degree

Ken Kunken: right? Yeah. After I worked for a

Rob Valincius: um,

Ken Kunken: correct?

Rob Valincius: Um, and you did that, you were an assistant district attorney for 40

Ken Kunken: Right. Here in Nassau County, Long Island.

Rob Valincius: now to get to the more important stuff, right, you, uh, you're married and you get a father of triplets, which is, I mean, flip a coin there and if you flipped it 10 times, you probably wouldn't get, you know, the triplet side, right?

That's, that's crazy to begin with. Um, and then you wrote a book, uh, dream, I dream of things that never were the Ken Kunkin story. And you published that, uh, last year. So that's, that's a long list, man.

Ken Kunken: Thank you.

Rob Valincius: Um, where I like to start with, with my guests, because it's, it's a little bit of a background is, uh, growing up, you know, take me to.

Before your injury, um, you know, what was life like, you know, you can talk to a little bit about where you grew up and Um, and then let's talk about that kind of the the faithful injury that obviously altered your

Ken Kunken: Well, I guess I had an unusual early life as well. My mother died when I was less than one month old. Uh, that was in 1950 during the polio epidemic. And shortly after I was born, my mother and brother caught polio. My brother was a mild case confined to his leg and he's perfectly fine. But unfortunately my mother died from polio when I was less than a month old.

So after my mother died, my father, brother, and I moved in with my father's parents, my paternal grandparents. And we lived with them for a little over four years, just under five years, when my father married his second wife. Um, but unfortunately, that was not a happy marriage, and it ended in divorce. But during that marriage, my sister was born, so I have a younger sister named Meryl.

Um, and then in 1968, my father married for the third time, and two years after that is when I had my spinal cord injured.

Rob Valincius: Wow So take me through that what what happened? Um, You know that obviously that you can remember I don't know Um, you know, uh if that messes with with memory because I know with with football everything moves so

Ken Kunken: Well, I was

Rob Valincius: you take me through a little bit what

Ken Kunken: I was playing on the lightweight football team, which only a number of schools have. At the time, it was called 1 50 pound football where two days before the game, everyone had a way 1 54 or less to play in that sport. So you saw a lot of athletes that had played high school football, but a little on the smaller side.

Usually, most people were very fast, So it was a very quick moving sport, and it was a varsity sport, and I was playing on the lightweight team. It's now called sprint football. Um, and I got hurt making a tackle on a kickoff, and when I tackled the ball carrier, I broke my neck and severely damaged my spinal cord, and as a result, I'm a quadriplegic, almost totally paralyzed from the shoulders down.

Well,

Rob Valincius: Um, that's, that's, that's crazy. It's, it's, it's wild to think and I have this conversation. I like to talk, you know, a little philosophy, right? It's, it's crazy, uh, how one thing can just alter the rest of your life. It could be one sentence, one word, one decision. Um, Why football? What got you into football?

Ken Kunken: I started playing football, I think when I was six years old. Playing little league football and I played five years of little league football, two years of junior high school football where I was the quarterback and co-captain of the team. Then I played two years of high school football and this was my second year playing college foot.

So I grew up absolutely loving almost all sports, but particularly football. And when I went to Cornell and I saw they had a lightweight team, since I was always smaller than most of the people I was playing with, this seemed ideal for me to be playing against people more my own size. So I was really looking forward to playing ball.

Rob Valincius: Now, was this, when you went to do the tackle, was this like one of those things you see on TV all the time where maybe you, did you like lead with your head and it just, or was it

Ken Kunken: No, what happened was, well, let me back up just a little bit. This was, uh, late in the first quarter, we had just scored a touchdown and normally I wouldn't be in on the kickoff team. But on the first play of the game, one of my teammates got injured on the kickoff and I was in on that play taking his place and I ran down the field.

And tackled head first. I lunged out at the person, hit him head first, uh, between the knees and the hips and instantly, you know, I went completely numb. There was like a stinging numbness through my body and I was instantly paralyzed. But let me just add something about my injury because, you know, you talk about psychology and, uh, how strange some of this can be at times.

At the beginning of the season, I actually had a premonition that I was going to get hurt. I don't know why. It was very strange. But at the beginning of the year, it was such a strong premonition that I actually told it to my roommate at the beginning of the year. I said, I don't know what it is. I just have this feeling I'm going to get hurt this year.

And that was the first tackle I made that year when I broke my neck.

Rob Valincius: what, see that type of stuff is wild to me, and uh, it almost, I mean obviously it's not as graphic, but it reminds me of, have you ever seen the movie Final Destination?

Ken Kunken: no, I never saw it.

Rob Valincius: Um, well, it's, it's a spooky season, right? Halloween. So if you get some time, watch final

Ken Kunken: let me, let me just break in for one second. I got hurt on Halloween day.

Rob Valincius: Oh my God. No way. Now, do you, does that alter, uh, your

Ken Kunken: it sure does. You know, Let me tell you that for years and years, I would get very depressed on that day. And in fact, for like the whole month preceding it, and just the sight of pumpkins would cause me to be even more depressed. And then later you mentioned that I'm the father of triplet boys. And once my boys were born, I went trick or treating with them.

And when I saw how much fun they were having, it totally changed the way I look at Halloween. And it became a fun day again.

Rob Valincius: Yeah. I mean, that would, uh, that would definitely mess with your mentals. Uh, I would

Ken Kunken: Sure does.

Rob Valincius: you know, because I, now I, I've never talked about this on the podcast, but my, my stepdad, he, um, his, his dad and his brother. Um, his older brother had a terrible accident. They both passed away. It was a car accident.

It was right around Christmas and, uh, and the holidays. He's bipolar on top of it. So, um, you know, around the holiday, it was always like a coin flip on how it was going to be. And, you know, I mean, stuff like that happens. And, and, um, you know, when there's tragedies happen around holidays, you know, Sometimes it's just, you know, all of this exposure with things that pop up on TV and commercials and, you know, for Halloween it's costumes and candy and stuff like that.

It's just, it's all kind of just takes you down memory lane, whether it's good or

Ken Kunken: Right? Well, of course, growing up, Halloween was my favorite day of the year. You go trick or treating, get all the candy and chocolate you could want that lasts you for months. So I used to look forward to that day every year. And then, of course, when I got hurt that day, That changed the way that day appeared to me for quite a while until my boys were born.

Rob Valincius: so final destination. If you ever, uh, if you get some time, why they have, there's like five or six of them, but basically the premise is, is the, the first one, the, the guy gets on a flight with his, his girlfriend and a bunch of other people. And, uh, he has a premonition that the flight's going to crash and everyone's going to die.

So he pulls the girl off and he's freaking out and then other people get off with him and the flight goes down. And, uh, then mysteriously, you know, uh, I guess the whole premise is, is, uh, you know, you can't escape death and all those people die horrible accidents afterwards. But, um, it's a pretty wild thing to, you know, and, and as a human, I feel like you're just naturally, there's just something that you just naturally have.

And I think it's in everybody. You know, whether it's, um, you know, that, that gut feeling that they say, um, I've had that happen where you just get a gut feeling and you're like, all right, I don't know if I should do this. And, you know, sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. So, um, now how about football?

How do you feel about football? Did it take you a long time to get over that or do you still hate it?

Ken Kunken: I've never hated it. In fact, when I was in the hospital, when I was first hurt, um, and when I got out of the intensive care unit and finally had a television in my room, the first thing I watched was football. That was the first thing I watched. And every Sunday I'm glued to the television. They are watching the New York Jets.

Rob Valincius: I was going to ask you, what, what, what, what

Ken Kunken: Oh, New York Jets. Yeah. No, the New York Jets.

Rob Valincius: Hey, man, I mean, I gotta say that, you know, they're making moves. Aaron Rodgers got to play a little bit better

Ken Kunken: This was supposed to be their year.

Rob Valincius: he's had some, some pretty bad interceptions, but I will say this, you know, he does have a lot of people that I think are still adjusting.

So there's plenty of time. I mean, the Jets defense is still really good. So, I mean, you know, if you guys click it together, you know, look, I'm from Philly, so I'm an Eagles fan, diehard

Ken Kunken: Well, my second favorite, second favorite team was the Giants. So I am not an Eagles fan.

Rob Valincius: sorry about that. Um, Hey, look, I, I, I, I loved him when he was on the, the giants, uh, Saquon.

And now I love him

Ken Kunken: yeah, I'm sure.

Rob Valincius: with the Eagles. He's, he's a, he's a great guy and he's a damn good running

Ken Kunken: I agree.

Rob Valincius: know? Um, but I, yeah, I'm a football guy. Let me, it's my number one sport. I love it. Um, when I was younger, I played a little bit. I played, uh, Offensive defensive line because I was, I was chubby kid growing up.

I was a big dude. Uh, and the highlight of my football career was blocking an extra point. Uh, or no, I blocked the field goal and I think our team ran it back for a touchdown. That was, that was the highlight of my, of my career. We lost every game that year. Um, and of course won the championship the following year that I didn't

Ken Kunken: All right.

Rob Valincius: Um, but then I got into basketball cause I got very skinny and, you know, basketball is, is my first love of playing sports, watching them, more of a football guy, especially with red zone, NFL red zones, the best thing on the planet, you know? Um, but let's, let's talk, uh, let's go back. Let's talk a little bit more about you and, um, let's talk about after the accident.

So, you know, what was that like for you to, you know, obviously, um, You know, that's a life altering thing. Um, not many people can handle that. So, you know, how did you handle it such a young age and be able to, um, kind of steer your life back to where you wanted it to

Ken Kunken: Well, unfortunately I didn't have much of a choice that I had to learn how to live with this disability. And being that I was 20 years old when I got hurt, I just knew that was just too young to give up on life when you're 20 years old. And I was very fortunate that I have a family that really stood by my side and was just so supportive.

And by my family, I'm talking about grandparents, aunts, uncles, brothers, sister, cousins, everybody was so supportive and, and they really helped encourage and motivated me. to go on and do as much with my life as I could. And I would say that they basically assured me without using those exact words, that they would act as my arms and legs to make sure I still got to do everything I wanted to do.

And from the moment I was hurt on, they were always right there by my side, helping made a huge

Rob Valincius: Wow. Yeah. I mean, family, right? I mean, um, it's, I think that's, uh, having that surround you like a, you know, a good, uh, foundation can really flip and turn a really bad situation into something that's I don't want to say positive, right? But, um, it could be way worse. Um, if you don't

Ken Kunken: Absolutely.

Rob Valincius: um, so it's good.

It's good that you had that, um, because I'd imagine Um, you know, not everybody has that support system behind them when when something like that happens um What um, what motivated you to kind of go back? You know, uh continue to get your degree and become that the first quadriplegic to graduate from Cornell

Ken Kunken: Well, after my injury, I knew that in order for me to have any chance of being successful. I needed to make the most of my mental abilities since I was so physically limited. So it was clear to me that I needed to go back to college. Then the question was what college to go to. And, you know, I don't live too far from Hofstra University, which was at the time well set up for people in wheelchairs.

But, you know, I just really loved the time I was at Cornell before my injury. I had friends on the football team. My friends. In my fraternity, I was in the Sigma Nu fraternity, and I just loved it up there, and I decided, you know, I don't want to just go to school, I want to go back to college where I enjoyed where I was.

So I decided to go back to Cornell, and I really didn't think it through that what all the architectural barriers that I was going to have to face. I mean, this was 20 years before the Americans with Disabilities Act took effect and Cornell was on a very inaccessible campus. Every building pretty much had steps in front of it and there was not one ramp or curb cut on the entire campus.

And on my first day of school back, I had to be either pulled up or bounce down close to 100 steps just to go to my first day of classes. But I just love being back at Cornell.

Rob Valincius: did you have like an aid

Ken Kunken: Yeah, I hired a full time personal care attendant that before I went to school, I had met only once before. And he helped me, you know, with all my personal needs for a year then when I went back to school. And since then, I've had to change aides many, many times. But yeah, I rely on my personal care attendant and help from classmates.

When my family wasn't around, you know, when my family was around, of course they did everything.

Rob Valincius: Yeah, I mean that's you know, what was that like? You You know, having to go through all of that stuff before the Disabilities Act. I mean, I mean, that had to be really difficult to just get about just about anywhere.

Ken Kunken: was very difficult. I mean, one of the classes that I took, which meant three times a week, was located in a building that had 16 steps in front of it. And that meant three times a week. And my dorm room had 10 steps just to get in. So, you know, everywhere I went, I was being pulled up and bounced down a lot of steps and including a lot of curbs.

There were no curb cuts. On the campus either. So it was really difficult. And I might add one of the things that I didn't like either was that I was constantly being stared at wherever I went because you just didn't see somebody in my condition up in the Cornell campus. I mean, probably didn't see many people in my condition at many other campuses, but particularly at Cornell.

So wherever I went, I was being stared at. And that made me really uncomfortable as well.

Rob Valincius: yeah, I mean, uh, that's, I guess, you know, with humans, right? That's, that's a natural reaction that we have. That's, you know, It's not good,

Ken Kunken: Yeah, no. And I knew, I knew they weren't doing it, you know, with any negative feelings in mind. I knew they were doing it out of curiosity because, you know, they just weren't used to seeing somebody in my condition on a college campus. Um, and just to give you an example, what happened when I was in the rehab facility, you know, I worked very hard to see if with certain braces and splints, I could feed myself and it was, it was very difficult, you know, with these braces and splints to try and move.

I could move my left arm a little, but not my fingers or my wrist. You can see, but with braces and splints, if I worked really hard with a long fork on a swivel, I could get some food at least near my mouth. And I remember, you know, my first semester, I went, when I went back to school and I went to the cafeteria, I had my aide set me up with my braces and splints.

And I had to really concentrate hard to try and feed myself. And at one point I looked up, everyone in the cafeteria was staring at watching me. I mean, everyone was watching me. I became so uncomfortable. I basically ate the rest of my meals in the room that year.

Rob Valincius: yeah. I mean, that's, I honestly, like when you think about becoming a quadriplegic, right? You think about it in today's standards and there's, there's a lot of standards now to help people with disabilities, right? And there's a lot of technology and advancements. I could only imagine what you had to go through.

Because we're talking well before a lot of the standards and, and all of the technology and, and things that they have available to you now that just didn't

Ken Kunken: Right. And you know,

Rob Valincius: which I had to make it, what, 10 times

Ken Kunken: absolutely. And most people had no idea. You know what to do or how to help somebody in my condition. And it was all so new to me too. I didn't know what to ask for and what I needed to tell people that would help me. Cause it was new to both me and everybody else I was around. So it made it doubly difficult.

Rob Valincius: And I mean, um, and I'd imagine, you know, you're talking Cornell, right? Cornell is a, it's an Ivy league school. Um, so you're, you're also talking people that tend to have money who probably have never seen anyone in your condition either to begin

Ken Kunken: You know, very few people saw people in my condition back then, because not many people that were quadriplegics. went out in public places because virtually nothing was accessible. You just couldn't get around. And while in the rehab center, I learned how to use an electric wheelchair. You couldn't take it anywhere because every place had steps or curbs.

So it was really difficult to go anywhere in your electric wheelchair.

Rob Valincius: When, when do you think it got, um, a lot better for you to, to, to become a lot more mobile.

Ken Kunken: Well, in order, in order to be able to get out and use the electric wheelchair, that was really after the Americans with Disabilities Act took effect. And that was, um, about 20 years after I was hurt. So, it was really, really difficult. Basically, I was using a manual wheelchair most of the time, and I needed, uh, my aid to push me wherever I went.

Which, you know, it was really difficult. It was difficult in addition to all the steps, if I ever wanted to meet somebody or talk, it was difficult because, you know, people may be hesitant to approach me back then, and I would need my aid to wheel me right up to somebody else, um, which was very awkward at times.

So it was difficult getting around.

Rob Valincius: Not to mention, I mean, what's it like for you? What was it like for you with, you know, privacy? I mean,

Ken Kunken: There was no privacy. There was no privacy because I always needed somebody around me to help me, whether it be the personal care attendant. Or a family member or, you know, anybody. It was like, cause there was nothing I could do by myself. So I always needed somebody with me at that time.

Rob Valincius: So I gotta, I gotta ask what, what, what motivated you? Like, how did you, how did you navigate through that? Cause I'm just thinking all this stuff we're talking about now, I feel myself like if I was in your situation, I would, I don't know how it acts because I'm a very independent person. I do everything for myself.

Uh, and I just, I, and, and, you know, having privacy is. It's a nice thing,

Ken Kunken: Absolutely. But you know what? When you're in the position I'm in, you don't have a choice, right? I mean, I felt that same way too. I could never imagine being dependent on somebody else and having to ask somebody to do everything for you that you usually did for yourself, but my family did so much to help me.

That after a while, it got to be the point that I didn't want to disappoint them. I mean, they would go so far out of their way to try and help me succeed and do the things I wanted to do that if I just sat back and said, I'm not going to do anything, I would have felt like I was disappointing them after all the help they gave me and I never wanted to disappoint them and they were just such a source of encouragement and motivation.

That it made all the difference in my life,

Rob Valincius: Yeah. I mean, I, I guess, um, you know, obviously you, you don't have much control of your body, but you do have your faculties, right? So, um, it's a little bit different because obviously in some accidents, you know, people lose the ability to talk and, you know, think for themselves really, right? So at least you had that.

And that was, uh, you know, that still makes you a person, you know,

Ken Kunken: what? It's interesting that you mentioned that because so many people assume that if you have a physical disability that you may have an intellectual disability as well. And I used to have people come into my room, let's say if I was in the hospital or out somewhere, and they would talk to the person next to me as if I couldn't speak, right?

Or answer any questions. Even when I was

Rob Valincius: that would piss me

Ken Kunken: Even when I was in the

Rob Valincius: would piss me off.

Ken Kunken: even when I was in the rehab center where the medical personnel should have known better, they would come into my room in the morning to make rounds, turn to the attendant next to me and ask, how is Ken feeling today when I'd be right there, right?

They'd ask the attendant, did he have a good night? How did he sleep? How is he feeling? And I'm right there in bed and they wouldn't speak to me. They'd speak to the person next to me. And these are people who should have known better,

Rob Valincius: Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah. I mean, I guess I never, know, I can see how that would be a mistake. Cause I think, you know, when I personally, before I've talked to you, when I, if I think of someone that's a quadriplegic, I tend to think of them as someone that can't move. They're, they're being taken care of and they don't speak to people, you know, and that's gotta be a common

Ken Kunken: All the time. It still happens. I'm hurt now. 54 years. If I go into a restaurant, they'll ask the person next to me, what would I like to order?

Rob Valincius: Um, that would piss me off, man. I, I don't know. You got, do you have like a, uh, Of response that, that you, that you tend to use where it's, you don't sound

Ken Kunken: You know, that's it. You know,

Rob Valincius: like an asshole.

Ken Kunken: I try and not make the person feel bad because I know they don't mean, uh, anything ill. It's no we ever will. But I try and put them at ease and, and, you know, I'll talk to them and try and say something to put them at ease. And, and just one very typical example is that when I'm introduced to somebody, somebody immediately reaches out to shake my hand.

And of course I can't move my right arm to shake it back. And you know, the person usually feels uncomfortable and oh, I'm so sorry. I tell him that's okay. It's nice to meet you. You know, I can't move my arm, but it's nice to meet you. I try and put them at ease. That happens all the time.

Rob Valincius: Yeah, I mean, that's, that's I don't know, I'm just thinking of all the situations where it would be, like, incredibly

Ken Kunken: Yeah. And people get so self conscious that they'll say things. Well, do you want to go for a walk? And Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean that, you know, I forgot. I don't mind somebody saying, do you want to go for a walk? That's what I say, you know, let's go for a walk or things like that. But people get very self conscious.

Cause they're so afraid of saying the wrong thing. And I'd much rather somebody feel at ease and treat me like they would anybody else.

Rob Valincius: Now, in terms of your body, and this is something, this is just something I've always wondered. Um, I probably could Google it, but, uh, you know,

Ken Kunken: It's okay.

Rob Valincius: you know, people that have dealt with it. Um, how do you, um, do the, like, the necessary, like, exercises so that your body doesn't deteriorate to a degree where you, cause you can get

Ken Kunken: Absolutely. Well, I'm married now and, you know, every morning and evening my wife does what's called a range of motion exercises where she'll bend my arms and legs to try and keep the joints loose and, you know, prevent what's called contractures and make sure that I'm not getting any bed sores from, you sitting or lying in one position too long.

And, you know, I try and stay active and spend most of the day in a wheelchair where, you know, what little movement I have, I try and take advantage of it. But, you know, it's, it's mostly the person with me at the time that, you know, will need to exercise me each day.

Rob Valincius: Yeah. Cause if you don't move, it's a

Ken Kunken: Right. Yeah. And, uh, you know, obviously my, my muscles have a atrophy. It's atrophy is, is the word that they atrophy. And obviously that happened to me very soon after my injury. Um, which is another difficult thing getting used to, uh, you know, not being able to look in the mirror and see a body that looks athletic or strong.

Suddenly you're seeing. You know, a body that has basically no muscle tone whatsoever and, you know, now as I'm aging, you know, I need to be concerned about osteoporosis and bone loss and, you know, normal aging process happens first, faster for somebody in my condition.

Rob Valincius: Yeah, do you have to take a lot of, um, extra vitamins

Ken Kunken: You know, I take vitamins and I take pills to help me with my blood pressure issue because my blood pressure is a problem to regulate. So I do that and I take some supplements. Um, but basically I just do as best I can to try and stay healthy,

Rob Valincius: It's good, man. And I got to tell you, you're, um, I mean, you look good because I know people that are, you know, 60 that look like they're 90. So, um, you know, it's, it's, it's good to, to get out for a walk, right? Sunlight. Sunlight is. Paramount to, you know, kind of staying alive. And I think, uh, what happens with a lot of people as they age is they don't go

Ken Kunken: No, I love being out, uh, sitting out with nature and just It helps me relax. It's just a really good feeling. It helps me relax.

Rob Valincius: so, um, why trial attorney? I'm, I'm intrigued on why you decided to go to law

Ken Kunken: That's a good question. You know, I get asked that a lot. And my older brother, Steve, was a trial attorney. You know, he recently retired. He was a trial attorney for the public defender's office. And I used to watch him in court, and I thought it looked really interesting. And I saw at least I'd get to watch him in court.

I wouldn't be watching when he was doing legal research and writing, but I'd see somebody standing up in front of a jury or in front of a, you know, a podium questioning a witness. And I'm saying, well, at least I can still talk. So I should be able to do that. But also for a while before I went to law school, I was working as a vocational rehabilitation counselor.

And during that work, I was counseling other people who had severe disabilities. But in addition, many times I was speaking at conferences before groups and organizations concerning non discrimination and affirmative action for people with disabilities, and I'd often be asked questions, and while I'd do my best to answer those questions, I was always careful to caution the questioners.

They should really speak with an attorney about their concerns. And after a while I started to think, you know, there's no reason why I couldn't become that attorney. So I left my job to go to law school. And while I was in law school, I found I really didn't enjoy doing research and writing and staying in the library.

And back then. You didn't have these computers that, you know, helped you do all the legal research that they have now. I said, I knew I wanted to use my voice since that was something I could still do and being in the courtroom and trial, I just looked one so challenging that I wanted, I wanted that kind of challenge and two that I'd be lying more on my voice than on my ability to do research and writing.

It just seemed like the right fit. And then I did an internship at the Nassau County district attorney's office. And I just really, really enjoyed the experience and I knew I wanted to devote my life and career to public service. Working at the DA's office seemed like the perfect place to do that. Yeah,

Rob Valincius: Now, when you were doing, obviously with, with law, right? You do, you do have to, you know, and then back then there was no type, probably really not a whole lot of typing. Did your aid have to write all of your papers with you as you were telling them what to write? Is that how

Ken Kunken: pretty much. Now, I was fortunate the DA's office, we had student interns, we had paralegals, we had legal secretaries, as well as other ADAs, you know, that would help. But I found a lot of the time when I had to do paperwork, obviously I relied on them. But I also relied a lot of my memory and I, I had worked hard, um, for years trying to improve my memory and it got to the point where it was really, really sharp and I relied a lot on my memory when I go to court, I do a, you know, basically my opening statements, my summations, my direct and course examinations, usually by using my memory and not using many notes.

Rob Valincius: Yeah. Cause I guess as a, as an attorney, you know, when, when you're watching the defense, you know, people tend to make notes of things we're going to bring up you, you didn't have that luxury. So you had to, you had to be sharp as a tack.

Ken Kunken: had a good memory back then. It's not quite as good now, but back then it was pretty good.

Rob Valincius: Is, is there anything you did in particular to help your

Ken Kunken: Oh, I, you know, I remember I read a book on memory. It was actually written by Jerry Lucas, former basketball player. And I listened to tapes by a person by the name of Harry Lorraine, who was a memory expert, who had also worked with Jerry Lucas for a while. So I did my best following that system for a while to try and train my memory.

And then over the years, I would just try and challenge myself to remember things and not rely on them. And it takes a while. And part of it is not to get too nervous and think logically, you know, and, um, do it over and over again until you gradually improved your memory.

Rob Valincius: So, uh, you know, you mentioned your wife. Uh, so obviously I gotta ask, you know, where did you guys meet? How

Ken Kunken: Okay. I have an incredible wife. Her name is Ana. She's just sitting off the camera now. Um,

Rob Valincius: Hi, Anna. I kind of met Anna a little bit.

Ken Kunken: Ana actually, um, for quite a while I was having a separate personal care attendant on the weekends that I had during five days a week because, you know, I needed so much help. And I had an aide, um, one year that was from Poland and he told me that You can get a lot of good help if you put an ad in a Polish newspaper, which is published here in America.

So I put an ad in the Polish daily news that I needed a weekend aid and Anna responded to my ad and I was really fortunate that Anna helped me on weekends for quite a while and You know, our relationship progressed from more than just, uh, my personal care aid to one where we became not just good friends, but we went past that.

We became romantically involved and I was so fortunate when she agreed to be my wife and we got married in 2003.

Rob Valincius: Wow. So you guys are, uh, you guys are past the

Ken Kunken: We sure are. Yeah, we celebrated our 21st wedding anniversary. over a year ago and we're getting close to 22.

Rob Valincius: congratulations. But,

Ken Kunken: was less than a year ago, I guess, but yeah, but the time goes fast.

Rob Valincius: it does. It does. So, uh, triplets, how the hell does that work?

Ken Kunken: that's very interesting too, because when Ana and I talked about getting married, Ana said that she wanted to have my baby, not just a baby, my baby. Now, this really seemed impossible at that time. I've been paralyzed for more than 20 years. Um, and no, I've been paralyzed more than 30 years by then. I was paralyzed for more than 30 years and I was already in my 50s, but we looked into various options, including in vitro fertilization and saw that it still may be possible for someone in my condition to father a child through in vitro fertilization.

So we pursued it and through the miracle of science, Ana became pregnant and on January 24th, 2005. I was present in the delivery room when Ana gave birth to triplets. We have three terrific boys, Joey, Jimmy and Timmy, who are now 19 years old and in their sophomore year at three different colleges in upstate New York.

Rob Valincius: That is amazing. I got to say, man, I don't know when I'm in my high school, um, we had, there was like a news story about it. I think we had the most, um, twins. In, I don't know if it was the state or in the country, I think there was like 10 or 11 sets of twins, which is pretty wild because I, you know, I was friends with some of them and I would, you know, with twins, it's always tough, man.

Uh, what was that like trying, like, did it take some time to get used

Ken Kunken: You know,

Rob Valincius: figuring out

Ken Kunken: Yeah. And it's interesting you ask that because, you know, going through in vitro, it's a difficult process. And both Ana and I, we each have a brother and a sibling that we're close with, a brother and a sister that we're close with. So, you know, I was saying to Ana, if we're going to have a baby, we really need to have two, so they have a sibling.

Um, and I remember thinking, wouldn't it be great if we had twins? Wouldn't that be great? And my youngest sister actually has identical twins. So all along I'm thinking, wouldn't this be great if we had twins? And lo and behold! triplets triplets.

Rob Valincius: Wow. Do you have, do you have any triplets in your family at all?

Ken Kunken: no, but you know, my, my sister has twins and I have a cousin who has twins, but no, we're the only ones with triplets.

Rob Valincius: that's, that's pretty cool, man. Yeah, I have a younger brother. He's, um, five years younger than me. Uh, troublemaker, but, um, you know, it's definitely, it would have been weird to not, to be the only kid. Um, I did have an older brother, uh, and my mom was pregnant for quite some time and then ended up having a miscarriage.

So I would have been, you know, Um, but yeah, it's, it's, it's good, it's good to have, you know, someone there that's close in age that, you know, you can, you can

Ken Kunken: Oh, it's great. Well, I've got an older brothers, two years older than me, who I mentioned is a lawyer, but also an athlete. And we used to play ball together all the time and do so many things together. And, you know, he's been my closest friend, my whole life. And I knew that it's important to have a sibling, you know, either a brother or a sister, or fortunately both, we ended up with three boys, you know, when, when Anna went through in vitro, we had three viable embryos.

And when it came the day to implant, the doctor suggested that we implant all three and hope. That at least one of them takes because there was no guarantee anyone would take and we met a lot of women in the fertility clinic who went through it and many times and didn't get pregnant. So we decided we didn't plan all three embryos and hope, you know, at least one took and I was really hoping that two would take and lo and behold, all three took and couldn't be happier.

You know, we are so lucky and fortunate to have three incredibly terrific boys. that are now in college.

Rob Valincius: that's awesome. Do any of them go to

Ken Kunken: One does, actually. One is a sophomore in Cornell, and you know, as it turned out, 50 years after I graduated, he started. He started his freshman year 50 years after I graduated. And in fact, he wants to major in mechanical engineering. My major was industrial engineering. So I can't believe, I just visited him, in fact, last week.

Um, and yeah, I can't believe I just signed

Rob Valincius: cool. That's pretty cool. What's, is it weird going back to the campus this

Ken Kunken: You know, it's strange because they've done a lot of building and the campus always looked great, but it particularly looks terrific now, but now, thanks to the Americans with Disabilities Act, they have ramps and curb cuts all over the campus. They've got an accessible bus going through the campus, a disabled students office that's very active.

I mean, it is very different than when I was up there, but it's,

Rob Valincius: You're probably like, SON OF A BITCH! Ha

Ken Kunken: I got hurt 20 years too early is what happened, but it's great to be back there.

Rob Valincius: now, you know, uh, going back to football, um, did you ever, you know, did you, did, were your kids into

Ken Kunken: No, that, that was clear. They were not going to play football, but I didn't even have to say that. They don't even want to watch it when it's on television. In fact, one of them, when he was young, I came up to me one day and said, daddy, why did you have to play football? I mean, they won't even watch it when it's on.

But they are very active, healthy kids, and they're all into the martial arts. So they studied martial arts. They're all second degree black belts in the martial art taekwondo. They've also studied Brazilian jiu jitsu. They've worked as instructors at the martial arts school, and uh, they're very healthy, very active, and in great shape.

But no, but no football,

Rob Valincius: Yeah, I just, I just interviewed a guy. Um, he was in the meditative arts. He was really good. Um, and he did, you know, Brazilian jujitsu and stuff, but his, his thing was, uh, meditation. So he studied all over the country and in many countries. And, um, it's pretty cool hearing. Like I, I have a very overactive mind, so I, I don't know if I could do meditation, but the way he talked about it, I'm like, man, I should, maybe I'll give it a try, you know?

I don't know if I'm gonna be good at it, but my, you know, the brain just, it just goes, you know. Um, alright. Your book, you're an author, um, you know, what made you wanna write a book and, uh, you know, how did it come to

Ken Kunken: Well, if this is you, I have the video on right too. So you can see my book is behind me on the shelf up there, you know, my book and what happened is when I was in the rehab center, you know, understandably, I was very depressed and one of my aunt's friends by the name of Albert Megalin came to the rehab center to visit me and he knew I was very depressed and he suggested writing everything down that I was going through, writing a book.

Okay. He suggested one, it may help me deal with my depression by talking through what I was going through, but he also thought it could be very informative to people because nobody really knew what went on in a rehab center and what it was like to live with an injury such as mine. So for a while, he was coming to the rehab center, you know, one day a week.

And he'd ask me to talk about what I went through and he'd write down the notes and then after a while, um, you know, when I came home, went back to school, I saw him a few times after that. But then we stopped and I would pick it up and stop and pick it up and stop over the years. Um, I actually learned to type a little bit with braces and splints.

It was like typing With the erase of a pencil, like one finger, really, really slow. And I would sit by an IBM Selectric typewriter. They didn't have laptop computers back then. That would have been nice. And I tried to type some myself, which was really slow. And then I'd stop for a while. And then after I got married, my wife suggested and agreed that we work on the book and for one of the reasons is so that my boys could read it when they got which they've read it now.

And I wanted to have something in writing that could let my boys know more about me and what I went through and how helpful the family was. But I was also hoping that it could help other people by hearing about my experience. So over the course of 50 years, starting, stopping, starting, stopping, with my wife's help, we finally finished the book.

And if I may tell you a little bit about the title of the book, you had mentioned, uh, insurance, uh, early on when we fought, started talking, my father was an insurance salesman, he sold, yeah, he sold life insurance. And when I was still in the rehab center, Senator Edward Kennedy asked if I would testify before one of his Senate health subcommittees.

care. And I think the rea me to testify was what he my father to testify. My agent to say that there w coverage out there that w Enough to cover an injury such as mine. So Senator Kennedy arranged for my father and I to testify before his Senate health subcommittee and eight days after my testimony, Senator Kennedy sent me a glass paperweight in the mail and the paperweight had an inscription on it that the Senator said his late brother, Robert Kennedy liked very much.

It was a quotation and the quotation was some men see things as they are and say, why I dream of things that never work and say, why not? That's where I got the title of my book. I dream of things that never work. The Ken Kunkin story. That's where that came

Rob Valincius: Wow. That is really cool. I mean, that had to be pretty wild and, and I will agree even today that there still isn't a ton of viable

Ken Kunken: from. Right,

Rob Valincius: Um, especially when you're talking, you know, with seniors, seniors, in my opinion, get the shit end of the stick with a lot of stuff. And it sucks because, um, you know, I, I always say this, it's my boss said it and I can never.

Like unlearn it, but it's when I make a joke, it's a joke. When the government makes a joke, it's a law. Uh, and a lot of that goes, you know, everything that they try to do to help seniors only ends up hurting them because when you attack the insurance companies and when you attack the drug companies, I mean, they're the biggest lobbyists in the

Ken Kunken: Well, you mentioned that one of the problems, you know, I'm trying to help people now when I worked as a rehab counselor. to get jobs. And one of the problems is if you earned a certain amount of money, you'd lose your Medicaid coverage and you wouldn't be able to cover the cost of your aid, your attendance.

So there were a lot of disincentives insurance wise to go back to work. And that's something that they're gradually, hopefully improving upon. But that's been a big problem for a lot of people. If they earn a certain amount of money, they may lose their Medicaid coverage. And so many people need that coverage to pay for an attendant.

So that's something that, you know, they've come a long way in helping. We leave part of the problem with that, but it still has a ways to go. And, you know, I was fortunate that with my family's help and with the insurance coverage, my father did have on me at the time, it helped me quite a bit.

Rob Valincius: yeah. And it, it sounds like your wife Ana was a linchpin in a lot

Ken Kunken: she's the best. She is the absolute best and really, really changed my life. I mean, I can't begin to tell you how happy she's made me, how great it is to be a father of triplets and to live in a home where there's a lot of joy, laughter, good, good feelings around and be more like a normal family.

You know, we, we live as any normal family would. It's, it's great. Incredible.

Rob Valincius: Yeah, what's the saying? Um, behind every great man, there's an even greater woman. It's, uh,

Ken Kunken: me. And as a result, my wife is still my caregiver. So we don't need the assistance of an aid there. And it's made a huge, huge difference, both financially, as well as the way I feel each day.

Rob Valincius: yeah, I'd imagine that's, you know, um, you know, when, uh, Halloween pops around now that you, you know, you got your family. It's, it's a lot different than when it was

Ken Kunken: Absolutely. Well, as I said, I used to be very depressed on that day. And then when I go trick or treating with my boys, when they were little, it became a very fun day again. And it really changed my outlook on a lot of things.

Rob Valincius: Well, you did a lot of, you did a lot of stuff, Ken. What do you, what are you most proud of out of everything that you've

Ken Kunken: Oh, no question.

Rob Valincius: are you most proud of? It

Ken Kunken: proud of the fact that I've got an incredible life and three incredible children. And the fact that I've tried my best to be a good husband and a good father, that's better than any other accomplishments that I've ever done. Um, you know, I've gotten, as you mentioned, a number of awards in my life.

There are none I am more proud of than being told I'm a good father and a good husband.

Rob Valincius: seems like you've got a great family. Um, let's, let's end with this. Cause I, I'm intrigued. Um, and, and I don't know if, if you'll be able to off the cuff this or not, but you used to, you know, used to work in law, so I have faith. What would current day Ken? Say to 20 year old Ken that right after his accident, what is something that you would say to him?

Ken Kunken: A number of things. One, I would say never lose hope, never lose hope. There are things going on all the time in the world, whether it be in new discoveries and improvements and medical care, um, that things are going to change hopefully for the better. But if even if you don't get your movement, there's an awful lot that you're still going to be able to do with your life and that you could live a useful, productive and rewarding life and still be happy.

In doing it and the fact that I could become a family man and be married and to be a father of triplets and be a lawyer and have a career and have many good friends and, um, never lose hope. And another thing that I would say is it's important to keep expectations. High people had such limited expectations of what I would ever be able to do.

And in fact, when I was in the rehab center. It seemed the medical personnel thought the best I'd ever be able to do would be to sell magazine subscriptions over the telephone. Now, at that time, I couldn't even dial a telephone. They were rotary phones. I couldn't take notes or write anything. Through my family's help, I was determined to do more than that.

And I want

Rob Valincius: Good thing you didn't listen to them because, uh, that you wouldn't have done well now.

Ken Kunken: And, you know, I'd want to tell somebody, Don't lose hope. There's a lot you can do. Right. And not only can you do, you can help a lot of people along the way. And that's a great feeling to be able to give back and to help others.

Rob Valincius: That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. And I, you know, I guess, um, you're, you were a little early to the, to the technology game because you have companies like new like now, uh, that is, that is, and I've, I've, I've. I've seen some videos, I've heard, uh, I know Joe Rogan had a guy on that, that had it, uh, implanted and I, who knows where, you know, uh, paraplegics, quadriplegics, quadriplegics, where we're going to be in, you know, even

Ken Kunken: Right. Oh, there's, there's research going on all the time. And it's exciting to see because when I was injured, the attitude was you can't fix a damaged spinal cord. And the next thing that they didn't say was, so we're not even trying. I mean, it was basically like, you can't do it. It's just impossible. And now with research that's going on, I think it's not a question of if, but a question of when there'll be, you know, either a cure or a way to get around the injury that you'd still be able to do everything it is that you want to do.

Rob Valincius: yeah, it's pretty wild because, um, if you, if you look at Neuralink and some of the stuff that they're doing, it's, it's all electrical. Waves, right? It's all, it's all electrics. And, and, um, their thing is basically just restoring that electrical, you know, cause when you, when you break your spine, it severs

Ken Kunken: You know, it's interesting that you say that because when I was trying to explain to my boys when they were little, why I can't move, and it was difficult to explain it. Well, it's difficult to explain to an adult as well. I was trying to liken it to electricity and a wire. And, you know, if you cut the wire, you know, there's no signal going through and the lamp won't work.

So, you know, I was trying to explain that to my boys and they used to go around telling people that, you know, their daddy's wires are broken. That's why I can't move. Cause my wires are broken. So, but that's what you reminded

Rob Valincius: that's a, that's a, that's a fun way to say that to kids where they would understand it, but you never know, man. And hopefully, um, you know, if you're listening to this, And, uh, you know, you, you have, uh, you know, the same injury that happened to Ken or something similar. Look what he did. You know, I mean, you should be a picture of, um, someone that can overcome, you know, uh, such a crippling disability.

Ken Kunken: Well, you know, when I was hurt. There weren't very many role models that I could look to, to see that, you know, you can do surgery, that you can work, that you can have a family. And I mean, Christopher Reeve did so much for people with spinal cord injuries. You know, it was such a shame that he unfortunately died when he was so young and was doing such a tremendous job in inspiring so many people, um, and bringing awareness to, you know, finding a cure for spinal cord injuries.

so much. And I think more and more now you're seeing people with spinal cord injuries who are doing a lot of things that, you know, can hopefully inspire other people to do more with their lives. And I, I hope my book helps serves that purpose as well. So I encourage people to go on my website, kencunken.

com, and they can find out more about me and how to purchase the book.

Rob Valincius: awesome. You, you stole my thunder. I was going to say, Hey, Ken, tell them where they can find you. But yeah, uh, Ken, kenkunken. com, uh, great website, by the way, you guys did a great job with that. Um, You know, uh, if you have any plans for an audiobook, you

Ken Kunken: I do have plans for her. I

Rob Valincius: good. I'm an audiobooker

Ken Kunken: Yes. In fact, I dictated it, but it needs work and putting it together. So thank you. We

Rob Valincius: I I find it Yeah, listen, I find that audio books, especially about personal stories, just are just so much better when it's, it's the person that it

Ken Kunken: Well, I dictated it. I did my, my, one of my sons, Timothy was trying to edit it, but he kind of ran out of time since he's back in college now, but we've got it all on tape and it needs to be put together and edited and it's going to happen.

Rob Valincius: awesome. Awesome. You, you email me, let me know. I'll be one of your first people that buys your audio book. All right. Um, my podcast is drink o'clock pod on all socials drink o'clock podcast on everywhere you can possibly listen to podcasts. This episode will be up tomorrow. A video will be up next week on YouTube, Twitter, you name it.

It'll be there. X. Sorry. I always freaking call it Twitter. It's it's still Twitter to me. But, um, Ken, thank you so much. And I know you're not on screen. Thank you so much. I appreciate you guys. And, uh, thanks for hanging out with me

Ken Kunken: Thank you. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to tell my story. I appreciate it.

Rob Valincius: Thank you so much. Have a great night. 

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