Aging with Purpose: An Interview With Deborah Heiser

What does it really mean to age well?

In this episode, Rob sits down with Dr. Deborah Heiser—developmental psychologist, founder of The Mentor Project, and author of The Mentorship Edge—to talk about how we can rethink aging, find purpose later in life, and build meaningful connections through mentorship.

You’ll hear real talk on emotional well-being, midlife identity, dementia myths, and why happiness actually increases with age. Whether you’re 25 or 65, this episode will give you a new perspective on growing older—and living better.

You can find Deborah's content via her website: deborahheiser.com

Transcript

Intro Song

Rob Valincius: And we are live. Woo. It is, I'm ready for the weekend. I gotta tell you, uh, Deborah, we're I am so ready for the weekend. Uh, welcome to the Drink O Clock podcast. I'm your host, Rob Valincius. I have the pleasure, uh, having with me Deborah Heiser. Now de uh, you're an applied developmental psychologist. Um, now you specialize in midlife in aging.

Um, you're the founder, CEO of the Mentor Project, and you're also the author, a new newly author, right? The book's not too old, right? Uh, of the Mentor Edge. Welcome to the podcast.

Deborah Heiser: for having me. I'm delighted to be here.

Rob Valincius: You know, uh, like I said before we hit record, I'm just happy that nothing went wrong. So I'm not used to this if it's throwing me off normally I'm like, all right, go on Micro Go me. Try Edge, try Chrome. You know, I'm like, I gotta, I have an IT degree, not that I use it, you know, 'cause it's not what I

Deborah Heiser: That's cool. That comes in

Rob Valincius: Uh.

Sometimes it, it helps, especially when your parents are like, how my WiFi's not working? And you're like, ah, unplug it. Plug it back in. You know, like, oh my God, you're a genius. I'm really not, mom. Thank you. I appreciate it. Um, but look, you have a, a really, um, really full background, uh, of education and stuff, and, and I was, I'm a huge fan of the psychology field.

It's what I wanted to do with my life when I was in college. It's actually where I met my fiance of 13 years was in, um, adolescent psychology class. Um, so I wanna start with, um, you know, talk a little bit about, you know, uh, your early years and, um, you know, what, what ended up getting in, getting you into psychology.

And maybe talk a little bit about what ended up getting you into that, that, um, splice of the psychology pie. The, the aging and uh, the um, uh, I just lost my train of thought. Uh, the aging and midlife.

Deborah Heiser: Sure. So I did not come, you know. Out as a kid saying, when somebody asked me what I wanted to be, when I grew up a psychologist or specializing in aging, that was, you know, not even in my vernacular until I was in my early twenties. I didn't really have an idea what a psychologist did and what didn't happen until I went to visit my grandmother, who I visited all the time, and she was the super fun grandma.

You know, the kind that always wore fashionable clothing and was fun. And I went down to visit her and she wasn't fun. And she was kind of like not put together. She was grouchy, she was completely not herself. So w when I went down there, I asked someone at her independent living facility where she lived, what was wrong with her, and they said, don't worry, we're going to fix her.

And I was like, what do you mean you're gonna fix her? And they said, well, she's taking a medication for her COPD, she had a lung issue. Um, and she's gonna be fine. She's just depressed. That's it. She'll be fine. And the next time you visit her, I didn't believe them. But the next time I went to visit, she was better.

She was amazing. She was back to herself. So I said, I wanna be a grandma fixer. That's what I wanna do. So tell me more about what this is. How do I do it? So I switched my degree to psychology and to the long haul to finish my undergrad degree and be, you know, got a degree in psychology. And then I knew I wanted to work with aging, which in the nineties nobody was doing.

It was, you know, the wild west of it. I had a hard time finding a university to, you know, look for a PhD program that had an aging. Anybody. So I was like calling people and I was like, hi, would you mind taking me on as a student if I were to work in aging? And I found, um, a school at Fordham University that said, one of the professors said, I'll take you on.

Um, and so that's how I ended up going into the field and it was a very roundabout way and I've never really looked back. I really enjoy it.

Rob Valincius: That's cool. Yeah. I mean, look, I work in, uh. I, I work in Medicare, uh, on the insurance side, and, uh, I deal with the elderly all the time, and both insurance agents who are 65 plus. And, uh, they're clients, you know, I have clients probably, you know, two, 300 clients that are, you know, some have passed, which, you know, uh, you know, messes with you a little bit as you, as you, as you're in the business.

I, I've been doing this for almost 10 years. Um, but it's, it's a highly, and you know what? It's weird. I, I think, uh, and I try to tell my dad this all the time. I know he's gonna listen to this. I, um, dad, because he's, he's, uh, 62, I try to tell him like, you're not old dude. 62 is like the new, you know, 45. Um, you know, old to me now, just being in this, in this world is like 75 to 80 because you have, you tend to have two different types of 75 to 80-year-old.

You have the heavily active. 75-year-old that's, that's out doing ballroom dancing and you know, they're, they're, they're walking and they have friends and they go out and then you have the 75 to 80-year-old that didn't take care of themselves and they're struggling with their life, you know, in terms of their, their health.

'cause a lot of times it's a rapid decline. Right. Um, so I try to tell him like, you got so much life that left. Ah, I beat my body up when I was younger. I'm like, dad, plenty of people have done that. You know, you can always take care of yourself. It doesn't matter how old you are, you know, uh, just, just get your shit together, you know?

Um, but you know what, what's your thoughts on that? What, what's, what's the elderly to you?

Deborah Heiser: So when I was younger, the elderly to me, um, were, you know, things that went wrong, right? Like depression. I thought, well, oh my gosh, you're older. That's a big thing. You have to really look at that. So I went out and started researching and I was looking at aging as everything no one wants to have or get.

You know, Alzheimer's, deme disease, um, frailty, depression, all kinds of things that no one ever wanted to experience. And it shifted for me when I went to a dinner party and somebody said to me, what are you doing? What do we have to look forward to? Why bother doing what you're doing? Because you're just putting a bandaid on horrible things that, you know, we're not looking forward to.

And I had to really think to myself, well, what do we have to look forward to? And that's when I shifted. So I once, you know, thought of aging as strictly a decline, a physical decline that would have your emotions following along with that. And I've since shifted to seeing what's really there, which is that we do have a physical decline that's inevitable, but their, our emotions are the opposite.

They go up and they never go down. So I look at aging as something that is really, how do we feel and are we having an emotionally good journey? And that's really what I'm looking at now is that, so when you talked about the two kinds of 75 year olds, I really wanna know how are you living your life? Are you enjoying your life?

Are you getting fulfillment out of it? And a lot of people can be. You know, they, they may not be as fiscally fit as somebody else, but they might be just as happy.

Rob Valincius: That's true. And, and there's a lot of different stuff. Like, you know, you go through these stages in life, you know? Right. You got your, your kid and then your twenties, which you're still a kid and your twenties, you, you're discovering yourself. And, and to me, I'm in my late thirties. Thirties, you're discovering yourself too.

You know, I feel like that's still a discovery phase. Um, and then, you know, that's, you really start to think about life in your late thirties, and then you start to really think about it in your forties and, um, you know, kind of how you take care of yourself in that range is really gonna dictate your, at least your physical health.

Um, but there's a lot of stuff that you don't think about. I think when you're, when you're younger, that when you're 60, you know, like, like we don't have kids. Right. I, I don't, and I don't think we will. So, you know, I, we say to ourselves, okay, well who's gonna take care of us when we're older if, if we need that, right?

And it's, it's one, it's either me or her taking care of, of one of us, right? Um, and, and you have to think about that. And then you have people, um, you know, my dad's, uh, like I say, he's 62, but his, his, uh, wife passed away last January, right? So now he doesn't, he doesn't have a significant other, and they were together for 20 years.

And you have to think about, you know, for the longest time, you think about, okay, I have this person with me. And we're gonna die together. And then what happens if that isn't, you know, obviously life is life. Uh, you know, you, you could never plan. It's just gonna be happy that you wake up and it's a new day, right?

So, um, you know, it's, it's planning. You're never gonna be able to plan for some of that stuff. So that happiness angle that you said is true because, you know, you could have this person that's in such good spirits and then what if their, their daughter dies, you know, or their significant other, and then that just throws a whole spiral, um, into that emotional side of things.

Right?

Deborah Heiser: Well, I'm gonna, you know, there's a lot there to unpack. I think that, I think that, yeah, once

Rob Valincius: I was spewing a little bit, sorry.

Deborah Heiser: good. It's all good. Um, this makes for good discussions. So you started by talking about how you're sort of discovering yourself when you're in your twenties and thirties. And that is true. You're in the identity phase of life.

You're supposed to be saying, I want all of these experiences and I wanna do everything I'm gonna do, take in all kinds of information. Fill up my cup with as much expertise and wisdom and values and culture and all the things that matter to me. You're figuring that out. And once you hit about 40 is when you start to say, Hmm, some of those things don't matter as much to me, some of those superficial friends don't matter as much to me.

I'm gonna slough off some of those things. Some of those activities don't mean as much to me. Maybe I'll even say that I don't feel as connected to some of the culture or religion or whatever I had, or maybe I'm gonna ramp it up, whatever the deal is by 40 or kind of seeing I, I think I know where I am.

And in that stage, we're starting to say what is the meaning in my life Now, A lot of people think if I don't have kids, I'm not gonna have somebody to take care of me. I. But we really shouldn't be looking at kids as future caregivers 'cause not all of 'em are good at it. Not all of 'em wanna do it. So, you know, we have to really look at, in our midlife, what is it that we wanna do for ourselves, not just physically in terms of saying, I wanna, you know, do X, Y, or Z with my life, but how do I feel about my life?

So I always tell my students, I'm in my fifties, you can all outrun me. I wear reading glasses now, but I'm happier than you. 'cause I already know where I am. I've, I've figured myself out and I'm, I'm content and I'm happy. And most people, when they hit that stage in life, that midlife stage is where they're starting to think about, well, what is it that I wanna make my footprint?

How do I want that to look? Do I want that to be deeper? In what way? Who am I gonna give back to? And you can have children and say, I wanna leave my values or whatever to my children or my culture or whatever it is that I'm gonna leave to that next generation. But it doesn't have to be children, it could be anyone.

You know, I run a mentoring program and people are giving back to, um, the next generation, and it's not their children. So it's really something that when we think of can you suffer from depression? Can you have things, if someone passes away or you have a life event, yes you can, but you should also expect that that isn't your permanent way of being.

Just like, it wasn't for my grandmother, it was a three month thing. We should expect that if we have a tragedy in our life or something like that, that we can get back on to the journey, the emotional journey we were set out on before. So our emotions and our. Our physical journey aren't always the same.

I could be going down physically, but going up emotionally, there could be a blip in there, but I still should be expecting to go up.

Rob Valincius: Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I agree with you. Totally. Um, now, you know, you did a lot of different things with, uh, dementia, so I wanted to kind of start with that a little bit. 'cause I know, um, at this point it's, it's one of those things where I think almost everybody knows somebody or that's familiar with it. So, could you do me a favor?

I have a lot of younger listeners who probably aren't thinking about them losing, you know, part of their minds when they get older. Um, can you, uh, you know, explain what dementia is? Um, how does it kind of differ from someone's normal aging? And maybe even tell us the difference between, 'cause I know that people get dementia, Alzheimer's, uh, confused, or they correlate them together.

So could you, could you kind of break that down

Deborah Heiser: okay to do that. You know, dementia's sort of an umbrella and within that is an Alzheimer's disease. So it's really when you start to lose your memory, you know, you that's really, I'll just say it as simple as that. Is it normal? No. Is it something we should expect? No. When we first found out about Alzheimer's disease, um, and then, you know, it was really talked about in the nineties and people were in a panic about it.

It reminded me of the seventies when there was a panic about cancer and people thought you could catch cancer. And you know, since then there's been a lot of progress in cancer research. Well, Alzheimer's disease and other dementias have had so many amazing. Areas of progress that they've been able to look at that can be very useful and helpful so that people don't have to expect or worry about Alzheimer's disease or dementia the same way that people were because they just didn't know who was gonna get it or suffer from it.

But we do know, even if you start to have symptoms, that there are things that, there are medications that people can take now that they really didn't have. And when they did have 'em, they were, they had a lot of side effects and things like that. There's a lot more that people can do. I will say that having a healthy lifestyle, um, is something that is a benefit to our brains.

We do know that exercise is good for our brains, that, um, healthy diet is good for our brains. So those things that we already know are

Rob Valincius: can say it. You can say it. Lack of alcohol. Okay. Lack of alcohol helps. I will, I'll tell you this before you go into it. I know this looks like it's a big drink. There's no booze in here. I've, um, I've gotten better. We don't drink during the week ever. And that includes my podcast. It's something that, uh, in my, in our late in my late thirties, I'm like, you know, well it was the Wifeys idea and I went along with it and I said, that's a great idea.

I think we should do it. So, you know, if you're watching this, I'm sorry. I know this is the Drink of Clock podcast. Sometimes I'll have a drink. It depends. But in most cases, this is a sober show for me, and it turns out for better, uh, interviews. 'cause I think by the end it's not always the greatest. But go ahead.

I'm sorry for cutting you

Deborah Heiser: No, not just that healthy lifestyle is most important. We did not know that. We thought that it was something that, you know, there, there are genetic factors with it, but we really didn't know a lot. So it was frightening for everyone. Everyone was thinking, am I next? Is that what I have to look forward to?

But I would say do not expect that as something that you have to look forward to keeping your vascular, vascular system healthy. Um, and I is important, but I also think really go to your doctor regularly, um, because your overall health is very important. The dementia is not the only thing that people are afraid of.

Um, some of the things that we really should be concerned with are our hearts, um, not getting a stroke. Um, making sure that we have other things in our lives that really take care, help us to take care of ourselves. So we have a lot of things that are tied to just taking good care of ourselves and getting regular doctor visits.

Rob Valincius: Yeah. And that's, that's a big thing, especially for you men. You older men out there. Okay, go to the damn doctor. It's, I, I gotta say that all the time. Um, we men. We're stubborn. We're stubborn. I'm still stubborn, and I know when I need to go to the doctor, I'm like, all right, I should go. And then before you know it, it's a month out and I'm like, all right, I should probably make the appointment and then it's two weeks and then I finally make the appointment.

You know? Um, so I, I do think, uh, you know, that's a hundred percent true. And, and it's, it's weird. Um, you know, I deal with a lot, every, every person I deal with, almost all of them are on some sort of statin that's used for blood pressure. And it's, it's kind of crazy because they've linked, um, some, there's been some research out there that's linked, um, blood pressure medicines with onset Alzheimer's.

Like they, they are a determining factor. And I don't know if that's, obviously, we don't know if that's obviously a fact from just because people's blood pressure was high and or low and, you know, it's, it's caused, you know, it started that or whatever. But there's been a link to that. Um, I don't know if you heard that or you've seen stuff about that.

Deborah Heiser: You know, I've heard that there are links with a lot of different, you know, not a lot, but several different things. I wanna see the research really come out and people say, here's what we know definitively before, because don't do take your blood pressure medicine. You don't wanna die of a heart attack.

Right. You know? Um, do take, you know, if you need to take cholesterol meds. Take them because you don't have a stroke. You know, these are the sorts of things that we're so fortunate that we have now. We're living longer and longer and longer because of new medications, new things that we can add to our lifestyles, but don't rely on meds to get you through everything, because again, a healthy lifestyle is really important and you might be able to reduce some of those meds that you take for those things.

If you have a healthy lifestyle, which, uh, look, does it suck for me to say that? And people are gonna be like, yeah, whatever. It's the same, you know, that I have with exercising and diet just like everybody else. It's not fun and easy. Um, but the truth of the matter is that if, if we take care of ourselves, those meds, those risks do lower.

Rob Valincius: Yeah, I would. I, I definitely agree there. Um, what do you think are some, uh, some of the biggest misconceptions, um, that people have about aging?

Deborah Heiser: People think, and I was right here in this camp, that they think that life is. Scary because we think of life as a physical journey and most of us think of life as an inverted V. So steep incline early on, and then a slow steady decline. And when we think of that, we think our emotions are attached to that, that as we decline, we're gonna A feel terrible and not be able to do much as time goes on.

And that we'll also feel bad. I can tell you though, I wear reading glasses now. I'm in my fifties. I really don't mind. I don't care. It doesn't bother me. These things happen so slowly over time that it isn't, you know? And truly, honestly, I'm not in a foot race with anybody. I don't worry that I can't run as fast.

So we think that the loss that we have is going to be noticeable, but it's not. Um, and the other thing is people think that we will be. Unhappy as we get older that, that we'll feel sad, we'll be feeling like a loss all the time and, and impending doom, and we don't feel that way. So, um, I'm not unusual in feeling like I have so many opportunities ahead of me and now I have the bandwidth to go do them all.

I can start a company, I can write a book, I can do whatever I want. The doors have opened up because I have the bandwidth now that we don't have when we're younger and we can run fast. So, um, our lifespan, even for those, when I talk about them who are late in life. Maybe in a wheelchair, can't breathe well, maybe they're on oxygen.

I'll say, why are you happy? How is that? And they'll say, because I can still do the things that I really enjoy. I can go on my computer, I can read and write. I can see my grandchildren. I can go out to lunch, I can visit with my friends. Those are the things that matter to us in the end are, you know, being able to connect with others and feel like we have purpose in our every day, and we can still have that.

Rob Valincius: Yeah, I mean, look, dementia, Alzheimer's, the, the, um, the mental related illnesses. It's the one, it's like one of my top three fears. I wanna do everything I can that, that blindness, those, those two things freak me out. Um, and I'm sure that freaks mo most people

Deborah Heiser: Yeah. Most people aren't looking forward to those things.

Rob Valincius: I would, I pass me a wheelchair any day of the week if it means, uh, I can still remember everything that's like that, that one thing that I think, um, as a, as a human, all you have at some point, right, are your memories, um, you know, family, friends, experiences.

So it's, that's one of those illnesses. It's tough to deal with it, it's tough to watch people deal with. My, my grandmom eventually died from dementia.

Deborah Heiser: It is tough.

Rob Valincius: you know, she was kind of like your grandma, right? She always went and got her hair. She was very close with my mom. My mom still, you know, um, is, is tore up about it.

But, um, you know, they would go get their hair done together and their nails and, you know, she would always call two or three times a day to talk to my mom. And, and you know, it was, it was one of those things, you know, we were all, we you take for granted, I think sometimes, you know, when you're younger. Um, what do you think our understanding of this, of the age related mental health, how do you think that's evolved over the years?

I know you mentioned the nineties and I mean, we don't wanna talk about what they did to mental patients back in like the fifties and sixties, but let, let's talk about like how it's evolved from, we'll say like, you know, eighties, nineties to now, right?

Deborah Heiser: You know, if we think of, you know, mental health with the elderly, it was always expected and still is to a degree, that older people will be in pain, that they'll be depressed, that they'll be anxious, and that they'll be lonely and that they'll be sick. So I used to work in a nursing home and I remember I walked in and I said to myself, wow, these people look a little depressed.

And I was a graduate student, so I was on my externship and everybody was saying to me, no, they're not depressed. I don't know what you're talking about. And I was like, okay, you're the expert, not me. So I kept going back and then I said to myself a little, you know, a couple of weeks later, okay, they look depressed.

And so I asked, I said, can I do a little project where I can just ask. You know, 15 question, um, questionnaire to people to see, you know, how they're feeling. And they were like, knock yourself out. So I did it, and it turned out that this, in this little group of people that I tested, that they came out as, you know, screening positive for depression. And I said, oh, wow. So this is looking like they're coming out screening positive for depression. That didn't mean they were diagnosed. Um, and so I said, can I do a full study on this? Can I do my dissertation on this? So it turned out I did my dissertation on this. And the way that they were assessing for depression in the nursing homes was that they had two questions.

One is the person taking medication for depression? And two was, have you seen the person crying? So, you know,

Rob Valincius: That's it.

Deborah Heiser: That was it. That was it. So when I walked in and said, everyone looks depressed, they were like, they're not. And so because

Rob Valincius: We asked them the two questions. They're fine.

Deborah Heiser: So when I did my test, it came out that people screened positively at a really high rate, and it didn't mean that they were depressed.

There's something called, you know, a, an adjustment disorder. If you can imagine people that go to college or they have any kind of new transition, there's a period of adjustment and a person can seem depressed or they can seem out of it. That happens when you start a new job. Any new thing that can happen, and the same with when you go to a nursing home.

But the biggest thing I found from that was that not only did the study that I did, it changed how they had to assess for depression in the nursing homes. 'cause I was able to find that there was an easier way to do it and you had to do it a little bit differently than they were. But people expected depression.

So they weren't saying, oh, this is an issue that we need to address. They expected that that's how they should be. So it wasn't alarming to them when they would come in and see people looking depressed. So the same with pain. If someone was in pain, they'd be like, well, of course they're in pain. The same thing with, you know, any kind of issue that they were having.

If it was negative, they expected it because they were old. That is where we had to make the flip, you know, and say, no, no, no. We should not expect that. We should never expect that. That is not related to age. That was just our own biases and expectations of it. And then when I looked at the news, I. And what was happening in the media in like the 2010s, 2015, right around there.

I was seeing that if you Googled older adult, all they had were articles on frailty, getting scammed, somebody getting, you know, in their wheelchair, getting robbed. All of these things that were making us feel like, oh my gosh, we better worry about ourselves and our older relatives because doom and gloom is ahead of you.

So a lot of it is a mindset in how we think about it and what our expectations are.

Rob Valincius: Yeah, I mean, look, even, even today, um, you know, me and me and my fiance talk about a lot. It's like, you know, uh, stay away from the news. Like, like, honestly, you should really just stay away from it because a lot of the news depend by which station you watch, right? I mean, we, we had discussed, um, you know, the, the politics of things can get crazy with people, right?

Um, even the news you watch, depending on what station you watch, it could be totally different views and, and things like that. And, um, it could really mess with you if that's all you're consuming, you know, as a person. Um, so it's, it's kind wild. Um, you know, how that works. Um, now you talked a little bit about your grandma and, and you know, um, these people you did your dissertation on.

Um, how did your dissertation turn out by the way?

Deborah Heiser: Well, the dissertation turned out really well because it ended up making a difference. Um, they had to change how they do. They assessed for depression in nursing homes. Because of that, that made a change because no one was looking at depression as an issue. Depression was just something you expected to be there.

So when, so I found, I found that to be great. I, it got published in a peer reviewed journal. Um, it, it ended up becoming a big pivotal thing that, that was a change in it. And if you go in and you look around at places like I go to where my mother-in-law lives, she lives in an assisted living facility. Um, they're not depressed.

They're walking around and they're happy, they're doing things. That's what we should expect. And people will say, oh, well it's because the place is nice. No, it's 'cause that's what you should expect. And she is gonna be 99 in June. And so this is what we really need to, yes, don't listen to the news, but if you're gonna listen to the news or watch television, realize that right now, I.

You know, I always think actions speak louder than words. And we are electing no matter what your political background is, people who are octogenarians or near octogenarians in, over and over. And that says something about us believing that people have the ability to do things when they're older. If you look at a lot of positions that are being held, it's by older people.

And that's not just here, that's globally. And if you look at television shows, they're starting to make a change. Like if you, I think there's a, a show, grace and Frankie that shows older women who live on, you know, who are, are living independently and they're starting to have more female leads who are older and things like that.

We're starting to see some good positive changes happening. So even if people are saying negative things about aging, I'm seeing more positive things about aging out there.

Rob Valincius: Yeah. And, and I mean, look, even in my world, uh, ever since I started, um, you know, the, the insurance companies obviously want. Seniors to be healthy because it saves them money. So a lot of the things that they've implemented, uh, even is, is since, you know, uh, COVID and stuff, I mean, a lot of these, these Medicare plans, I mean, they have stuff built in to get watches, so, you know, you could track your steps

Deborah Heiser: too.

Rob Valincius: your heart Yeah, your heart rate.

And they're getting pretty crazy with some of that technology too. And I, I hope, um, they continue to work on that bio style technology because I think that will be a, and I, I've talked about this before and I get into it when I talk about medicals because I just deal with it a lot. But, um, you know, it's, it's cool to see the industry, the, the healthcare industry go from more of like a reactive to a, a proactive approach, right?

So instead of saying, oh, you got cancer, let's, let's treat it, it's okay, you don't have cancer. But your, you know, you, your dad had cancer and your, you smoked. Let's, let's take a look at some of the SI early signs. Do you have it? No, let's try to prevent it. Right. Um, and they're doing a lot of that with some of this technology and I think that's cool because you have seniors that get these watches and these cool things and I think we're hitting that strand of senior that is very, a lot more comfortable with technology now than even five, 10 years ago.

Deborah Heiser: You know, it's funny because you say that, and my mother-in-law used to live with me and she's 98, turning 99 soon. And she ha we used to have her friends over for dinner when she lived with us. And one of 'em came in and it was, you know, I don't know, about six years ago, um, six or seven years ago. And she came in and her friend, and she was like talking on her phone, which was on her wrist.

And she's the same age as my mother-in-law. And I thought, how cool is that, that she has better technology than I have? And so, like, I didn't have an Apple watch, but she did. And she was talking to her daughter on her wrist, you know, doing everything she needed to do. And I thought, wow, we've come a long way because here I am at a dinner table and she's talking on her phone, on her wrist without missing a beat while she's eating her salad.

I thought that was kind of neat.

Rob Valincius: Yeah, that's awesome. And you gotta love seeing it too, because, you know, at the end of the day, um, you know, these devices can be annoying, right? Uh, because, well, I grew up, I still grew up in a time when we had privacy as people, which you don't have anymore, uh, because of the devices. But it's great because you get to, you do get to stay connected, you know, if someone wants to, you know, if you're, if you're retiring and you don't wanna stay in cold, cold ass Philadelphia like I am, uh, you could go down and be a snowbird and live in, you know, the key, you know, lived in the Keys in Florida, go to Arizona.

And, but it doesn't mean you still can't be connected with people, which is it. It's cool, especially in, um, when you have someone that's aging and they just want a, a change, you know, sometimes there's, uh, you have family that's anchoring you, but. You know, maybe your heart's calling for something else. You know, maybe you wanna go snowboard or maybe you wanna go surfing.

And you can do that right when you retire. I mean, you can do it whenever, but you know, you have a lot more time when, when

Deborah Heiser: We shouldn't expect to give those things up as we age. We really shouldn't. You know, we should be expecting that if you surfed when you were young, you'll be surfing when you're older. If you like to travel when you're young, you're gonna like to travel. When you're older, you know that those don't go away.

It's not like you hit midlife and you're like, Ooh, ah, I'm just gonna sit on my my chair and do nothing. We should really expect to have hobbies, so start your hobbies early, because a lot of people underestimate the importance of that because that also gives you a good connection base. So you mentioned connection, and there are all these studies that show that if you're connected, it's a buffer for loneliness.

And they have all of these social isolation, um, and social prescribing things that are being done nowadays because they're trying to make sure that seniors in particular are, are connected so that they aren't suffering from l loneliness, which is a risk factor for depression and other things. So, um. We should really be expecting that we connect with others.

These are great devices, you know, our, our watches. But you know, also get staying involved in all of our hobbies that we've started, um, where you get to meet with people and feel like a meaningful connection. Like you mentioned, you're, you and your wife said, Ooh, who's gonna take care of me when I'm older?

Well, when you have a community, your community comes out for you and you, you know, that's who takes care of you. You know, I have an uncle who lives by himself and you know, when he needs to get his mail, the neighbor kids go get it. Um, you know, he can't go out. He's not as able to do things. His community comes out for him.

And that's what we should expect. We should think that people will be there for us.

Rob Valincius: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, you talked about this a little bit, but hit, hit us with what, what are some early signs of depression or cognitive decline that people should be aware of? Whether that's either for themselves or maybe their, their loved ones.

Deborah Heiser: I will tell you some risk factors for depression that most people don't know about. And um, that is if you have a stroke, you're 50 time, 50% more likely to suffer from depression. If you have a heart attack or have heart issues, you're 50% more likely to suffer from depression. If you like a medication, you can be more likely, like my grandmother was to suffer from depression.

So if you know somebody who suffered from a heart attack or has been diagnosed with a heart issue and you start to see that they are behaving differently, like I noticed with my grandmother, she was like, I don't, I don't wanna get up, I don't wanna do the things that I did that was noticeable. Um, not just to me, but to everyone around her.

So if a person suffers from cancer, you should expect to be looking for signs and symptoms that are different from their usual behavior, because that might be an indicator that they might be suffering from depression. So should you just expect that to pop out in nowhere? No. But there are things that can be in our lives that you should say, these are the times I'm gonna really look for things that might be standing out to me.

And in terms of, uh, of Alzheimer's disease, the one thing I would say is a really good way to keep on top of that is a good annual physical because your doctor is measuring your memory. They give you tests. And especially seeing a geriatrician is important because they will be measuring not just your eyesight.

If you go for a full physical every year, they're gonna measure your hearing, they're gonna measure eyesight, they're gonna measure all kinds of things like that. And we do know that, um, hearing loss as you get older, that is not, you know, dealt with with a hearing aid, has, you're at risk for memory loss.

Um, that that's so yes. So these sorts of things are very important. A lot of people put a lot of stuff off and they say, I'll do it later, later, later, later. And they never do it. And I'm saying it doesn't matter how old you are, start now. Go do it, because that is where you're gonna have your baseline. And somebody can look at that year after year and see how you are doing.

And if there is a loss, they'll be able to say, Ooh, you know, you, we should look into this. And you can have it looked into early. If it's depression, you can fix it, right? And if it's Alzheimer's disease or dementia, you can get on a medication or you can talk to your doctor about ways to deal with it. Um, so these are some of the things that doesn't mean that you have to live a life of rapid, immediate decline.

There are things people can do nowadays.

Rob Valincius: Yeah, I mean, um, that, that's not, I mean, look, I, I saw my eye doctor, you know, and I see him every year. And this was the first year in a, in many years that I didn't have a decline in my eyesight. It was exactly the same. And I gotta tell you, as someone that's 38, I gotta clap my hands and be happy because I'm like, damn, I gotta change my, my contacts again, and nope, exactly the same.

And I'm like, thank God. You

Deborah Heiser: That's

Rob Valincius: uh,

Deborah Heiser: Keep

Rob Valincius: these are the things you get excited, excited about when you get older people. If you're listening, your eyesight doesn't get worse. It, it stays the same. Um, well, let's, let's, all right, we, we hit the, uh, the aging stuff, which I really wanted to talk about. Let's go to the other side of things.

Um, in terms of the, uh, mentorship, um, can you explain to everybody, um, what do you mean by, uh, mentorship? What is that?

Deborah Heiser: So mentorship is something that I have said before that I think that that term is so loosely used right now that a lot of people are unsure what the meaning is so people don't engage in it as much, or they don't acknowledge when they're engaged in it. So mentorship really is five key components to it, and that is that it has to be generative.

It comes from the mentor, right? The mentor is the one that has all of the information. And when we hit midlife, we hit a stage called generativity. It's where we're built to wanna give back. So first thing is you need somebody who wants to give back. Like you have a podcast, you're saying, I'd like to give back wisdom to other people.

Now there has to be somebody, the mentee who wants that. So if I said to you, Hey, I wanna mentor you in pickleball and you don't like pickleball, we don't have a match. That's not mentoring. I.

Rob Valincius: Terrible at, at serving in

Deborah Heiser: So that,

Rob Valincius: at it. I do need a mentor there.

Deborah Heiser: so, but you have to be aligned in that way with someone to receive and someone to who's giving. And then the next thing is it has to be intrinsically motivated. And what that means is that I, if I'm getting paid to do it, I'm not mentoring. That's something else. It's coaching, it's advising, it's something else.

So it in that, because it's extrinsically motivated. So if you like to do anything like read or you know you have any kind of hobby, you do it because you love to, you don't do it because you wanna get paid for it.

Rob Valincius: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Deborah Heiser: need that there. Next thing is we need a meaningful connection. If you are not meaningfully connected with your mentor, you know, then that's that.

Then you're probably not mentoring. There could be a weaker version of it. Like if you are doing a podcast and giving information out, you may not know who the mentee is, that person receiving it. So it could be that that's a weaker link, but you should have a meaningful connection there, even if it's a one way.

Um, next is that there has to be trust. And this is a big one. This and intrinsic motivator are two of the biggest. So if I am out and I don't trust someone, I am not gonna be a good mentor. If I think that somebody's gonna steal my idea and run away with it, um, that's not my mentee. If I'm a mentee and I think, well, that person, I'm gonna.

Tell all of my vulnerabilities and the things that I don't know how to do too is going to think less of me. Or if I'm at work with them and they're not gonna gimme a pay raise or a promotion if they find out I don't know how to do it, we're not mentoring. And finally there has to be a goal. Like it could be as simple as, tell me the lay of the land of this place.

You know, something very vague and simple. Um, but if you don't have all five of those components, you do not have mentoring. And a lot of places don't have that. They have the title mentoring, but it's not actual mentoring.

Rob Valincius: That's interesting. Yeah, I mean, I, I got, I gotta tell you, and, and you know, it's weird when you think about it too, because we've had mentorship all throughout human existence, right? Um, you know, even like as early, like I think of when I think of mentorship, like, I think of, um, blacksmiths, right? And their apprentice.

That's literally, at the end of the day, that was a mentorship, right? That that guy had all the knowledge of how to create metal, turn metal into weapons and whatever. And, and that kid didn't, or that guy didn't. So, um, you know, we've had it for a long time. How do you feel, uh, the digital age has affected mentorship?

Has it, has it helped? Has it.

Deborah Heiser: Hugely. So, mentoring isn't just work, it's also our culture. That's how religion got passed down. That's our family values and our traditions. You know, people wanna have, if you feel strongly about values or traditions or your religion or whatever it is, morals, whatever, that's something that people like to say.

I'm gonna give that back. I want that out in the world. I want it to remain there. So in terms of, you know, if we were to look at mentoring in the digital age, we saw a huge shift. Once Covid happened, everyone got on Zoom. Prior to that, we were using like Skype and you know, it was really like

Rob Valincius: Rest in peace.

Deborah Heiser: was, yeah.

Right.

Rob Valincius: Skype,

Deborah Heiser: Big deal to get online with somebody and everybody's wifi was crummy. It was like huge. There wasn't much happening that way. Now people can get mentored around the world by people. We can see like a, we've seen a huge boom in podcasting. Those are mentors. You are mentoring, you're giving back knowledge to people.

You know, you're giving back something that you feel passionate about to others. That's mentorship. You know, you're doing that for not for pay. You're doing that because you want

Rob Valincius: definitely not.

Deborah Heiser: you know, you have, uh, you want people to be meaningfully connected with you. Um, is that as strong as being in person? It's kinda like telemedicine, you know?

We would rather be in person with somebody, but if you don't have that, take what you can get. Right. So these are all forms of it. I'm gonna be seeing, I think much more AI involvement. I. Um, and I don't know what that's gonna look like in the future, but I do write about that in the book about like how some people have created, you know, like, um, a bot that can give out mentorship to a certain group of people based on their expertise and pass on that wisdom in a mentoring kind of a way, you know, that is out there, it's being done now.

So we do have all of these new forms that are out there digitally. I'm excited by it personally. I think it connects us even more than we were before.

Rob Valincius: I, I love ai. I use AI for many aspects of my life. Um, I do think that there's a detriment, just like, but there's, that's with everything, right? What did they say about the internet when the internet was created, right? Uh, well, some people thought it would never get big and look, here, look where we are now.

Right? We're, we're all interconnected. Um, and then, you know, it was the same thing with social media, right? Social media would never be anything. And look where we're at now with social media. I think AI's kind of that next, that next, uh, gradual evolution. Um, I, I think. I think we need to be careful with it, but I think that there's a lot of what you can do with it that could.

Um, well we, we talked a lot about mental accuity, right? Uh, acuity. And I think it could definitely help you there, right? It can, um, alleviate some of those medial tasks that you wouldn't wanna do. Um, but could also help. I'm a creative person. It could also help you create base ideas for things, right? Um, and I'd imagine as someone that's aging into, I mean, look, look how far we've come in a couple years, right?

Three years since chat. GPT came, uh, in, hit us in the face. Where are we gonna be in 20

Deborah Heiser: I know.

Rob Valincius: are we gonna be when I, when I turn 65? Hopefully there's still social security 'cause that would suck. But where are we gonna be then? Uh, you know, I mean, who knows what type of advan advancements AI is gonna bring to the table?

And I, I do think this is, um, something that could really help with, especially if it gets to a point where it can very much mimic. A human, I don't think it's ever gonna take the place of a human, but it could very much mimic a human. Um, and if you have someone that's, you know, alone in a home with no friends or family, maybe it could be a companion to, to a friend, to somebody and help them.

Uh, so they don't jump into those depressive states. Right.

Deborah Heiser: Yeah, they have, now that I heard about from somebody interactive, um, like, like, I don't think it's a book, but it's some kind of an interactive. You know, kind of a fantasy lifestyle that people can have where there are characters and things like that. I don't know where that will go, but I do know that this is all a big help in connecting people now because we can find ways.

If a person is lonely, we don't need a, a fake person. We can connect them with people in their community. As, you know, like UJA in New York is doing with getting social prescribing and connection happening with lonely individuals. It's getting them like face to face. Um, so you can use AI to help find ways in which you can connect people.

If you go, if someone goes to the doctor and they find out, oh, they're really not connected with others. Well, how, who is there and how can you connect them? I think that our, our system now that we have with tech is gonna be useful for that. So that that person can have people dropping food off, that they can be coming over to help them.

Maybe they need help cleaning, maybe they need, um, assistance in other ways, um, that that would be useful emotionally for them. Maybe they'd like to, you know, just sit and have coffee with somebody. It helps to get people connected on a human to human level when it's awkward sometimes for a person to try to find that on their own.

Rob Valincius: Yeah. And it's great for learning too. I know. Um, I do a Spanish lesson every day. I've done it every

Deborah Heiser: that's super cool.

Rob Valincius: bed for years, and they use ai, um, to help you. Learn languages, which I thought was pretty cool because it, it gets you to, it's more personalized to you, right? Because what I think all too often we talk about this box and ev every human's supposed to fit in this box.

And that's, that's not how it is. It's definitely not how it's, I mean, everyone has similarities, but everyone's a unique being. Um, and I think it's cool. I think AI will be used to tailor, um, things like learning a language, um, because we all learn things differently and we all absorb things differently.

And if you're older or younger, you pick up things fast or slower, you know.

Deborah Heiser: Yep.

Rob Valincius: Um, so let's, let's talk a little bit more about the mentorship. Um, you know, what I would like to know is what type of advice would you give to somebody that's maybe older and, you know, later in life if they're trying to look for a mentor?

Deborah Heiser: So everyone at every age should say, I need a mentor. Right? It I, you don't ever age out of needing a mentor. I. Um, so what we should really be doing though is looking at mentorship as something where we are gonna be an expert that somebody else isn't. And we're al always gonna be somebody who doesn't know something that somebody else knows.

So we're always in one of those positions. So you can look right around in your community and you have an opportunity to give back or to get information. So say you say to yourself. I'm older, I wanna learn something, I wanna get mentorship and something that is completely new to me. Well, there are a lot of places that you can go right in your community that are, have been around forever.

You can go to the Rotary Club, you can go to, you know, your house of worship, you can go to any other specialized organization. Most communities have like a community ed that's there and you can find someone who's gonna help you. It doesn't have to be that you take a class, but you can say, Hey, can I pick your brain to someone?

Can I get some advice on something? You can also look to anyone in your family and friend network that you already know about. Um, so these are all places that you can go, that are easy, that are free, that are available to you so you can receive mentorship. You can also go to the all those and give mentorship as well.

Um, but I always tell people, look to your left and look to your right because you're looking at somebody who can mentor you and you're also looking at somebody that you can mentor. So just like everyone who's in tech understands how, if you're a hardware engineer, you kind of have to pair up with a software engineer at some point.

And those are two people who are able to mentor each other laterally. Neither is the boss, you know, neither one is hierarchically higher than the other. And most of our interactions in life are lateral in that way. So, you know, our country was founded on, uh, a bunch of lateral mentors that came together.

Nobody was the boss and they founded the country. All of the big tech revolution was lateral. So if you're older, this is something that we're really well versed in, is getting lateral mentorship. So don't think you have to look to somebody older than you think. You have to look at somebody who has a different area of knowledge than you.

Rob Valincius: I like that different, different life perspective. That's, that's good. I like that. Uh, and I think more people need to do that. Um, I don't think we do it enough for sure. And I, I'm saying that from, from my perspective for sure.

Deborah Heiser: oh, for sure. And most of us think that it has to be something that is gonna be like, now I'm gonna go do this new activity. But I'll tell you a lot of the stuff that that's really important to us as our culture. So I have every Thanksgiving my grandmother's handwritten recipe cards with her full Thanksgiving dinner on it, and that is a trend.

I think that that is from her mother. So it would really have come from my great-grandmother. I'm gonna, now, if I don't make that full meal, everyone is like, what? And there's even stuff that people don't like in it, but I have to make it all because it feels like that holiday. Now I'll be passing that on to the next generation.

It may not be my kids, it might be like an A cousin's kids or it's gonna get passed on. Um, because you never know. Somebody might take on somebody else's traditions when they. Pair up with someone. But the, the main thing is it's been passed down generation to generation. If you walk into your family, you can feel and understand your values that you have that matter to you.

Now, that is something that you can mentor somebody else in. It does not have to be a direct relative, but you can mentor people in those sorts of things that are important to you or receive mentorship from somebody else in those kinds of things, which is religion, culture, value, all of those things that are sort of abstract and that are out there living, but uh, in the world.

But without it, we feel completely lost.

Rob Valincius: Yeah. See, I'm a giver. I gotta get better with asking. I love to give, I, and I, I'll have people on this podcast and they'll ask me questions about the software I use and the settings and how I market and all this. And I'll just give, give, give. But I, for me, I'm one of those people I, I, I don't tend to ask, I gotta get better

Deborah Heiser: Uh, here's how you can ask. That's a little easier. You can say, can you give me some advice on this? It's much different than asking if you're saying, can I pick your brain about this? You're an expert in this. Can, can I ask you a few questions about that? Then it doesn't feel like you are a taker. That's allowing the other person to be a giver, because this is case with me and so many other people.

I don't know if it is for you, but if somebody asks me for my advice, I'm like, you want my advice? Really? I feel so good and I'm willing

Rob Valincius: a fluff.

Deborah Heiser: because I feel great. Then what? You value me? Excellent. So if you're asking somebody for that, you're actually giving them a gift. 'cause they get to feel like they matter.

Rob Valincius: I like that. That's a good way to look at it. Um, let's talk about your book. You wrote a book, the Mentorship Edge. Tell us a little bit about it and uh, you know, what was that writing process like for you?

Deborah Heiser: So the writing process came really easily to me because I've been doing this forever, right? Um, so that was not hard. Um, but I co the book is really there to say, here's what mentoring is and here's what it isn't. And I really wanted to get that out there to say, here's how coaching is different. Here's how advising is different.

Here's how networking is different. Here's how you can use them all together. Um, it also really was there to show how we have hierarchical mentoring and a bunch of examples, um, of people who've engaged in that and how that looks and lateral mentoring and how that looks in the real world. So it's taking a lot of stories from real people and how those have played out with regard to mentoring.

And it's really looking at mentorship from the mentor's perspective. Um, as you know, the, we can see it, the mentee's perspective, uh, perspective in it as well, but mostly the mentor's perspective. So the writing for me was really exciting and fun because I got to talk to a lot of really cool people from astronauts to grandmas and how it was to mentor.

And hear their stories, and there were enough differences in all of them that it, that it was so fun to hear it because it was relatable to, you know, my everyday life and, and to others when they read it too. So it was really a, a pleasure.

Rob Valincius: That's awesome. That's cool. I, I, I don't even know what I would ask. And I, there's so many things that I, like, I've been doing this for three years, but there's still so many types of people that I haven't had on that I, I'm, I'm like chomping at the bit to get on. I love interviewing people like yourself with psychology.

'cause I share that love and you're an author and I authors are fun to interview just in general. 'cause their mind works, tends to work a little differently than other people. Um, but it's, it's, there's so many things out there in the world that, that are left that I can, that I can still do. And, uh, for me, that's just excites me.

Anytime I get a new person that, uh, you know, they gimme the tidbit about themselves, I'm like, Ooh, let's go. Can't wait. Let's, let's do it. Well, what, what do you wanna do? What do you wanna talk? Let's get it going. You know. Um, let's, let's talk a little bit about your, um, uh, the, the mentor project. Um, can you, can you tell us what that is and, and you know, how you're involved with that?

Deborah Heiser: So the mentor project came around organically. Um, we were, I was looking at all sorts of mentors because I wanted to see if this whole generativity thing was real. Um, this was a theory that had been really well researched, but nobody was really talking about what it looked like for people who were engaged in it.

So I was talking to mentors and asking them about it, and they were saying, I love to mentor, but I have such a hard time finding mentees. And so a couple of us, you know, just a handful of us started trying to get people in front of kids in schools to see what it would look like and see how that would be.

And we happened to then say, Ooh, we're getting enough excitement about this from ourselves, and other people seemed to like it, the kids and the schools. Let's make this a nonprofit. And we were told there was never gonna be anything other than the handful of us that would. Be doing this because no one would ever wanna give back who's a top 1% in their field.

They're too busy, they have too much going on. This is, you know, they're not gonna wanna give their time to kids in schools. And we went from 10 to 60 to 80 to a hundred within a year. And it showed that people want to give back. They just didn't know where or how. And so we have been super lucky because we've ha we were able to give away $3 million of mentorship hours last year alone.

And that was in five countries. So, you know, our mentors are really out there. Changing the lives of students everywhere while at the same time changing their lives because they feel every time you impact somebody, it's like you're impacting yourself. You enter that journey with that person and every little hurdle that they jump over and every achievement they have, it's yours too.

So it's just really an amazing experience for everybody, and we are hoping to double it this year.

Rob Valincius: That's cool. Hey, look, if you ever need a podcaster, you let me

Deborah Heiser: I will.

Rob Valincius: to mentor some future podcasters. Let's, uh, let's, let's end with this. Okay. I, I, I always, especially a psychologist, uh, I'm interested to, to what your answer would be here. What's one piece of advice or a life lesson that stuck with you throughout your career?

Um, bestow upon us some knowledge.

Deborah Heiser: When I was five, my grandfather used to take me on rides with him around town and I lived in Des Moines, Iowa. And he'd bring me in this big giant Cadillac convertible and I'd sit in the front seat and he would tell me stories about everybody we passed. And I didn't understand what that many, he'd be like, Hey, Mary, over there.

She had a hard day, you know, but he, she, she put her kids through college and see that guy over on the bench. His wife just chewed him out because he didn't take in the dry cleaning on time. And he said to me. Every person has a story. You can never look at a person and know what their story is, but you need to know that everyone has a story.

And I'm a psychologist, now I need to know everybody's story. That was

Rob Valincius: Foreshadowing, little foreshadowing

Deborah Heiser: maybe, but that was what, that was impactful to me. That those bits of wisdom that still stick with me now. I remember his stories and I remember him telling me how important it is to know what a person's story is. That you can't just, you know, judge a person without finding out what their story is.

So that stuck with me. That was the wisdom that has, that I still use today.

Rob Valincius: That is an excellent life lesson. It's something, uh, I, especially myself, I've been trying to get better with like, you know, that person that cuts you off in traffic and gives you the finger, you know, that type of person where, where you're gonna get pissed off, maybe they had a bad day. You know, I'm trying to get better with that.

And I

Deborah Heiser: We all are trying to get better with that one.

Rob Valincius: I think we as a species could probably benefit from trying to think on the other side of that coin. And I think that could cause a lot less conflicts, you know, as we, as we get older. Right.

Deborah Heiser: true. Very true.

Rob Valincius: look, Deborah, it was fantastic having you on. I it was a great conversation. Can you tell everybody where they can find all of your content and all of your things?

I know your book's on Amazon and stuff, so can you tell us where we can get all that stuff?

Deborah Heiser: Sure. Well, you can find out about the mentoring@mentorproject.org. It's free for students, so just click become a mentee button if that's interesting to you. If, um, you can find me. I write for Psychology Today. I have a substack called, um, the right side of 40, and I can be found on LinkedIn and I also have my own website called debra heiser.com.

Rob Valincius: Oh, very unique. I like it.

Deborah Heiser: I know I'm so creative.

Rob Valincius: listen, uh, you could find my podcast anywhere you listen to podcast is drink clock anywhere you listen. Uh, and also on YouTube if you, if you like watching videos, social media, it's Drink o'clock pod almost socials. So, uh, it was great having you on. Thank you for taking the time outta your day to hang out with me.

And, uh, yeah, let's do this again soon.

Deborah Heiser: This was my pleasure. Thanks for having me on. It was great to meet you.

Rob Valincius: Thank you. Uh, you as well. Have a great day.

Deborah Heiser: You too.

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