Unlocking Tax Mysteries: Gabriel Morrow's Expat Experience

Gabriel Morrow is an American expat living in Canada. We talk about how a missing IRS refund turned into a multi-year legal and tax battle. What began as an unpaid $1,800 tax refund escalated into identity theft flags, lost tax returns, and an unprecedented case involving a U.S. university-based low income tax clinic.

We dive into the realities of navigating the IRS from abroad, why Americans overseas often feel ignored by the U.S. tax system, and how citizenship-based taxation creates serious problems for expats. Gabriel also explains why residency-based taxation may be a better solution and how simple bureaucratic errors can spiral into major legal consequences.

This episode offers a firsthand look at U.S. expat taxation, IRS accountability, and the real impact of broken government systems. 

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Transcript

Intro Song

Rob Valincius: Thirsty Thursday, the best day of the week. Happy to report. I'm still alive. It's, it was still kicking, still breathing. This is the Drink O'Clock podcast. I'm your host, Rob Valincius. And I have the pleasure, the absolute pleasure. And I, I should have asked your cat's name, um, before we started. 'cause you know, we could have, we could have threw him in there, but, um, I have Gabriel Morrow with me now.

Uh, you know, Gabriel, um. You know, you got a lot of interesting shit going on, um, that I thought, uh, would be, would make for a good podcast. Uh, especially 'cause you know, we're, we're in that tax season, uh, type, uh, well, most people are trying to do their taxes now to get a refund already, but I wait until the end.

But welcome to the podcast brother. How you doing,

Gabriel Morrow: I am doing pretty good. And for the record, this little guy's name's Felix.

Rob Valincius: Felix?

Gabriel Morrow: always gotta pay our attention to the kitty cat. 'cause no matter how much my legal issues are, he's very important to me.

Rob Valincius: Felix is, it's a good cat name. I like it.

Gabriel Morrow: Yeah.

Rob Valincius: So, alright, before we get into all of the crazy legal issues you had, uh, walk me through growing up, man. You're, you're from the us you moved to Canada in 2020, but talk to me about, you know, where you came from and what life was like before you, you made the, the jump internationally.

Gabriel Morrow: Well, originally I lived in Cleveland, Tennessee and my life was pretty mundane there. Stayed with my grandparents, helped them out a lot until, uh, I was in my. Late twenties, early thirties. That's whenever I first started looking into moving to Canada with my wife. 'cause I had met her through Facebook.

Rob Valincius: Mm-hmm.

Gabriel Morrow: for the most part, I guess you could say I had your typical Cleveland, Tennessee lifestyle until I met her.

And whenever, that's whenever I started looking into moving abroad. 'cause I didn't have the money to move her to the states. She has a lot of medical issues, things like that and there, and it just wasn't practical to move her to the states. So I wanted to be with her. So I moved to Canada and it's definitely been a tough life since I moved to Canada, but it's also been a growing experience.

I've grown, grown a lot as a person and I've learned a lot.

Rob Valincius: So what, uh, you know, before we get into the craziness, what, um, you know, what are some differences, you know, between Cleveland, Tennessee and Canada? Where in Canada are you? Like what area?

Gabriel Morrow: Uh, Inglehart Ontario, which is pretty far north and probably the single most noticeable difference would be the climate. Like right now, it's, uh, Misty. What the temperature is out there right now, actually, 'cause I know it's pretty cold. It is currently, uh, minus five degrees Fahrenheit,

Rob Valincius: Jesus Christ, dude.

Gabriel Morrow: I've seen it get down to like minus 40 outside, and with the wind chills, you might get minus 50, 60, something like that.

So it can get pretty cold out there.

Rob Valincius: I am not gonna complain about the 33 degrees we had in Philly today. 'cause I was cold as shit. Uh, you know, minus five is nuts and minus 50 is just, I mean, does, does, does everything just freeze? Like how do you even open doors when it's minus 50?

Gabriel Morrow: I mean, the doors themselves, usually you, you gotta be careful and make sure you get all the snow off away from the doors and stuff. 'cause otherwise it can breeze up. I mean, a perfect example is my mother-in-law's truck today. Her, uh, back thing on her truck froze. So she could, we couldn't even get it open.

I was afraid I would've trying to open it because we just try to put a dress, get a dresser in it and stuff. But I couldn't open it because it's supposed shut. So we're gonna have to wait to get the dresser. I didn't want to break the handle off of the back of the, uh, pickup truck because that cost a lot of money to fix, but the handle was gonna give before that door ice on that door was gonna give.

Rob Valincius: Wow. Yeah, I mean, uh, I saw, I saw a video on TikTok and I was laughing about it. It's like, uh, I think it was someone that lived in Canada, or it might've been someone that lived in, um, the, you know, northern. Us. I think it was Canada though. And they're like, no, you know what it was, it was Alaska. And it was like, move to Alaska, they said, and like they, they're showing their door and it's just iced.

The, the whole door is frozen shut and ice had come in through the door jam and was just frozen from the top of the door all the way down. And I'm like, yeah, nah, I'm good man. I'm good.

Gabriel Morrow: I mean overall though, I mean, as long as you wear good clothing, you can always stay pretty warm, because I've actually found that if you put on enough clothing in certain situations, you can actually start to sweat outside even whenever it's like 20 below if you put too much clothing on. So it's really a matter of the type and quality of clothing you put on.

But it's also a bit annoying to layer up and all that.

Rob Valincius: The wifey, just, uh, she was at Costco for me, and it was a running joke because I probably haven't owned a coat of any kind since I was 12, 13 when my mom would buy me coats As an adult, I've, I, I don't, I've, I've purchased a peacoat. Which is like, you know, a fancy coat for when you go out. But I, I didn't own like an everyday coat.

I would just wear hoodies that's just, and like zip ups, like, that's just my thing. It's always been my thing. Um, I run hot and, uh, you know, over the past couple years as I've aged the, that has changed. I've started to get pretty fucking cold. So she was at Costco and found like a nice jacket for me. And, uh, you know, I've, I've been wearing that the past couple days 'cause it's been cold as shit here.

Gabriel Morrow: Yeah, well, I mean, to be fair though, we may have bad winters here, but the summers are pretty decent here compared to Tennessee now. Tennessee summers are very hot and humid. But here where I'm at, you may get two or three days that are like insanely hot and humid, but otherwise it's pretty decent temperatures here.

I mean, temperatures in maybe the eighties are pretty common in the summer, and usually not too humid, but there's a bit of variability. Sometimes you get days where it might get into a hundred and it might get humid days, but they're not too often.

Rob Valincius: Yeah, I mean, that's the problem in the north. Uh, just in general, I feel like, like our seasons, I mean, at least for you that's pretty good. But in Philly, our seasons are like. Drastic, you know, winter it's cold, really cold, and then in the summer it gets really hot. There's no like middle ground fall's. Okay.

Typically, like our fall this year was pretty tame. Like, I mean, there were some days where it was still 75, 80 degrees and fall, you know, up and up through October, and then all of a sudden it went to like 40 degrees within like a week. It was kind of a drastic change this year, but kinda is what it's.

Gabriel Morrow: well here, fall isn't too bad. The spleen can be a bit messy 'cause usually you get a lot of snow that built up over the winter and sometimes you can get a little bit of flooding depending on your location and stuff, if it melts too fast. But the summers are nice 'cause they usually have a, not too far from here, there's a few lakes and they have a.

Uh, cabins near the lake and you sometimes get a lot of these witch people and other celebrities and stuff that sometimes like to come and stay in those cabins in the summer. And it's actually a pretty nice place to go if you like camping and stuff. It's a great place to spend your summer and.

Rob Valincius: Yeah, I'm a, I'm a tech guy. Me and camping don't typically go hand in hand. Um, I'm, I'm also not the, the, the manliest outdoor person. So, um, you know, my fat ass enjoys being inside in the heat or the air conditioning and, and chilling, you know,

Gabriel Morrow: Uh, I'm kind of pretty similar. I mean, I do walk outside in this town sometimes and go to the store and stuff. 'cause this is a small town. I mean, there's only like a thousand people living in this town.

Rob Valincius: Wow. I probably have a thousand people living in my neighborhood.

Gabriel Morrow: Hmm.

Rob Valincius: Yeah. In Phil. We're northeast Philly, man. So it's not, it's not center city or the in the city. We're, we're on the outskirts. But, um, lemme ask you this before we get into your, your, your situation. What, um, what. What is the healthcare like in Canada?

I know you said your, your wife is, has got medical issues and I know, you know, obviously in, in the states, you know, insurance and hospitals and there's just malpractice when it comes to screwing people. But what's, what's the, um, what, what's it like up there?

Gabriel Morrow: I mean, in general, the I've, from what I've seen in both the states and here, both systems have areas that they can be improved upon. I mean, most Canadians, if you say stuff about their healthcare, they get defensive and stuff, but if I'm being honest. I mean, there is wait times, especially in certain parts of the country like Northern Ontario, where you may have to wait a while for a procedure or like if you want to go and get a knee surgery, you will wait several months.

But if it's a life saving procedure, usually it's pretty much free and usually they will get you in quickly. So if you had a heart attack, they will get you to a heart specialist relatively quickly. But if you need a knee replacement from where, from, let's say, uh, where you had an injury or something on.

Or whatever, you may wait a while for that.

Rob Valincius: Hmm.

Gabriel Morrow: it really just depends on your exact, uh, situation. Now here, healthcare is mostly free. I mean, you still pay for prescriptions and stuff despite what people may think in the states. Not everything medically is free, but usually prescriptions are a bit cheaper here.

But, uh, in the states now, if you don't have a good health. Job, you are totally screwed if you happen to wake your leg or something. But here you're safe. So depends. Like if you have a good job, the states is probably better. If you're healthy, the states is better. But here if you're not, but if you're not healthy and you have long-term medical issues like diabetes, things like that, Canada's probably a better choice.

But it really depends on everyone's situation, which would be better. But. To say that they're, but one's better than the other. It depends on your situation. I, I mean, the grass isn't always greener in one country or another.

Rob Valincius: That's true. That's true. Alright, let talk to me man. What, um, walk us through your experience, you know, 20, 20 hits. Um, you know, walk us through that experience with your 2020 tax refund and you know, how, how it was handled

Gabriel Morrow: Well, I mean, well,

Rob Valincius: and explain the situation first. Like kind of how this all came to be, I

Gabriel Morrow: Well, I mean, uh, I got married in February of 2020 to my wife and we sent in the paperwork to get for immigration in March of 2020. I basically came to Canada as a visitor in September of 2020. During the height of COVID because I, under the exemption, I could travel to CO to Canada because I was married.

So I traveled to Canada and basically stayed with my mother-in-law in Kirkland Lake there for a while, and eventually got permanent residency in January of 2021. And at that stage we moved over to Timmons, Ontario. And once we moved to Timmons, Ontario. Around March of that year, I followed my US tax return because I'd worked most of the 2020 in the US and I was due an $1,800 refund where I'd overpaid taxes and stuff.

So I followed it and I'm thinking, well, mean, it's not a big deal if I didn't receive a refund. I thought it was just lost in the mail, which. Given the mail delays. At that time, international Mail was really delayed because there was a lot of COVID restrictions with the post office. They couldn't have a certain number of people there, and it was just a total mess.

Mail was a total mess. So somehow or another, the IRS had flagged my return as possible, IDT refund fraud, and on top of that, had lost my original return. So I'm like, so I, but I didn't know about at the time, and I just thought it was lost in the mail. I mean, that's. That's what anybody would think, I suppose, in that situation.

And I didn't really bother to pursue it because I'm enjoying my life here. My life is totally, uh, okay right now, so I'm like, I'm not gonna bother with it. It's not a big deal. I'm gonna go on with my life. But I continued to file my taxes in 2022. I, I mailed in my taxes, didn't expect a e refund, so didn't pay any attention to it.

Come to 2023. And h and r block switches to E following taxes, and I'm like, okay. Initially I'm thinking, well, that will make life easier. I no longer have to pay for postage. I no longer have to go to the post office and mail crap out. I can just do it electronically. But that's whenever I discovered that I needed an ID pen because they had flagged my 2020 return.

And every return after that is possible. Identity theft, refund fraud. in 2023, I started making a lot of phone calls. I was also technically do a refund from a legal settlement with my former employee in the States for 2023 'cause they paid it out in W2 and withheld some. So I was do a refund. So I spent a lot of time on the phone in 2023 with the IRS. I managed to get 2021 and 2022 and 2023, fixed those tax years, but I could not, for whatever reason, get 2020 resolved. And it's, the reason I couldn't get it resolved is because they had also lost my return, but I was too busy talking to them about the possible IDT. I didn't know they had also lost the return.

So at this stage. I'm going into 2024 and I'm starting to look into how do I get a lawyer because I'm not having much luck talking on the phone. I spent nearly six, seven, eight months talking on the phone with the IAS and I'm not getting anywhere. So I'm like, how do I get a lawyer? And I look into the laws of what allows low income tax payers in the states.

To get access to a lawyer, and I come across the low Income Tax Clinic Act and I'm like, well, why can't I use this here in Canada? What's the difference? I'm a taxpayer here in Canada. Everyone in the States is a taxpayer. We're all taxpayers, so why can't I use this? There was nothing geograph, nothing in the law restricts the ability of a low income tax claim to take a case from Canada, other than it just doesn't usually happen. So I call around and get a hold of the University of Washington and they take my case on a case by case basis. And from there that they have to generate a report on what clients they took in their geographic location and other general information about how they have done advocacy. And that government report is now being concealed by the, both the Biden and Trump administration have concealed that report.

Rob Valincius: That's good. That's, that's, that's handy. So you went through countless frustrations, obviously. Um. What, what do you think was the biggest frustration? Was it the lack of communication? Trying to get ahold of the IRS? I mean, obviously for normal people, and I can tell you this, I mean, just getting ahold of, uh, unless, unless you're calling like their, I'm gonna pay you right now line, most of the time you're, you're not getting a real person or you're getting a voicemail or you're getting an email address.

Gabriel Morrow: I guess probably the biggest frustration is that something that was so simple. Like a simple identity theft refund fraud flag just spiraled into legal question about a government report and about a government job posting and everything else. It just something so simple spiraled outta control. I mean, if it had been actual identity theft, refund fraud.

Then LifeLock, which at the time my grandpa was paying for a LifeLock subscription with me would've covered or helped me sort it out. But because it was possible IDT refund fraud, it had, it was actually worse from my perspective and from my personal experience then if it had been after identity theft refund flood.

So it's just that that's what frustrates me the most about this.

Rob Valincius: Why do you think they flagged it as possible? Because you were getting 1800 back and or like, why do you think they did that?

Gabriel Morrow: well realistically they got various systems that flag refunds based off what, like suspicious activity and stuff. And I suppose looking back, I mean, it probably makes sense to flag it because I was moving to Canada, so I had a Canadian address and before I moved to Canada, I used to have it always deposited directly into the bank account, my refund.

But here I'm moving to Canada. I have a Canadian address all of a sudden on my return, and I'm trying to mere my refund to Canada, so their systems probably think something ain't right and automatically flag it because it's not normal for people to do that.

Rob Valincius: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's why, I mean, for me, uh, I am very thankful for my accountant because, um, you know, there's all those legal loopholes and he's always like, listen. I know your business lost, you know, this much money, but if you've actually put that, you know, you're, you're gonna actually hurt yourself in the long run.

This is how you handle business tax losses. You know how tax is handled with losses and this is how, where you should put it. And I also pay quarterly. So I, I, you know, I have a real job, but then I also, uh, I sell and work with Medicare insurance, so. Okay with my insurance license, a lot of it's 10 99, so you know, I have to, uh, I don't, I don't get, uh, tax taken out, so I have to pay taxes.

Uh, I have the least amount of tax taken outta my main checking, like my main, uh, business account because, you know, one thing, uh, my boss always told me, he is like, Hey, you're just given the. You know, the, the government alone, basically, he's like, you, you have them. Take out as little as possible, you'll break even.

He's like, it's better than getting a big refund check, you know, at the, the next year. You know? So I've always done that. Um, why do you think Americans abroad right, often feel like an afterthought when it comes to the US tax system?

Gabriel Morrow: Because in all

Rob Valincius: same situation

Gabriel Morrow: mean, I mean in all honesty, they are. I mean, if you think about it, I mean they are a big group. There's 10 million of them, but unlike any particular person in the states like. Like the state of Pennsylvania, there's those people there are all looped together and they vote for a single senator here.

They're spread out. There's a, they're a big voting block, but they're spread out. So 2% of each district may have, Americans are brought in it. But if you can pass a policy that wins over 3% of the vote, but schools over the Americans abroad, then you automatically gain from the standpoint of the electoral college because.

3% of the votes, more than 2% in any district, even though you're screwing over 10 million people or however many millions there are Americans of abroad, it's depending on who you ask, that number varies, but most people say around 10 million. So basically by, that's how it works. I mean, there is, there's no single representative or that represents the whole group, so their voice in Congress is limited.

Rob Valincius: Interesting. Yeah. I mean, look, the tax systems, I mean, it's built to, uh. Especially now with a lot of the stuff that, that Trump has implemented, right? It's, it's, it's designed to, uh, protect the one percenters. And, um, typically low income people tend to, you know, make up maybe a little bit or break even, but the middle class is really who gets like, absolutely fucked.

I mean, um, you know, I've been middle class my whole life. I'm typically the one on the, the end of the poll getting screwed. Uh, so at this point I do whatever I can to, to avoid getting, uh, you know, audited, right? Because I don't feel like dealing with all that and then have to call my accountant and have him produce all my shit.

And then I also just don't feel like dealing with the heat because, uh, you know, you don't wanna deal with the, the, the US. And I mean, right now is a weird time because, you know, obviously Doge. Cut a lot of fucking, a lot of jobs that were, you know, in some of those infrastructures. And, you know, with some of the new rules, I mean, there's, it's kind of a, kind of a weird time.

Um, I think, uh, I was hoping the IRS would just be abolished, but,

Gabriel Morrow: well, you know what's ironic about it is the history of this whole, uh, expat tax madness, the United States and are the only two countries that have a, that attacks the citizens abroad and the US has a more insane tax system, but. It was actually implemented during the Civil War originally.

Rob Valincius: Interesting. So why, why would they have that from the Civil War? Was it because people were defecting to other countries or?

Gabriel Morrow: Well, I mean, Abraham Lincoln thought it was a good idea because he wanted the, uh. People who were leaving the country because a lot of people were fleeing the country 'cause they didn't wanna fight in a war, so they fled the country. So he thought, okay, let's tax these people. If they wanna flee the country, they can at least pay to support the war effort.

And I mean, in theory, that sounded good at the time, but that's how it originally started. And then after the Civil War, they repealed it. The entire tax code. And then back in 1918, they basically revived it and kind of, kind of copied the Abraham Lincoln tax code into the, what would become known as the IRS.

Initially, the, uh, this tax was only on the wealthy. it only applied like, and there was a lot of exemption stuff, so it only impacted the wealthy people originally. But the thing about it is most people in Congress did not know about it. And you fast forward to 2008 under Obama, he passes the F and FO Act, which were the two big kahunas as far as Americans of water are concerned.

And whenever we passed those, it no longer was a. Just affect affecting the wealthy. It started affecting the average American abroad. So really the Americans abroad were screwed over the most by Obama. But I mean, don't get me wrong, it's really both sides that actually caused it. 'cause Trump, he promised to get rid of double taxation for Americans or abroad, and there's been no action on his part to fulfill that promise.

And by the same token, the other presidents, they've all. Both the Democrats and Republicans have played a role, but if you, but before 2008, it was a fundamentally different situation with respect to the tax code for Americans abroad versus the post Obama era.

Rob Valincius: Yeah, I didn't know that. Um, what do you miss? What do you wish more US residents understood about expat taxation and compliance for it? Because I don't know. Shit. I don't know shit about it, to be honest with.

Gabriel Morrow: I mean, honestly, it's basically the, for the most part, it's basically, uh, I mean, we don't technically pay, most Americans of abroad don't technically pay taxes, but they still have to file. that following obligation is complicated and depending on what, what you're trying to do, sometimes you do pay, like here in Canada, there's this program that's set up for people living here called the Tax Free Savings Account.

And depending on who you ask, it's tax free for people living here, but because Canada doesn't tax it, usually the United States taxes it. So there, so that's kind of defeating the purpose of that program.

Rob Valincius: Hmm. I, and it doesn't help that our relations between Canada and the US have been sumptuous with, with Trump either. What's it, what's it like, uh, you know, being an American over in Canada, do they understand that it's, it's not our fault that, you know,

Gabriel Morrow: Well, it depends

Rob Valincius: exists?

Gabriel Morrow: I mean, it depends on who you asked. I mean, some Canadians, I mean there's a lot of anti-US here in Canada right now, but there's also some people who understand that. I mean, it really depends on who you talk to. I mean, I know here there's a, like if you go to the grocery store, you'll see where they put flags on the, uh, products that came from the United States, so you'd know which products came from the us, which came from Canada and.

Which were impacted by tests which rot and all that stuff. So, you know, when you go to the grocery store, you're supporting a Canadian product or a US product, or a combination of the two.

Rob Valincius: Interesting. So, so, and has, has the, the alcohol been, I know that there was a whole thing with whiskey and shit, right?

Gabriel Morrow: Well, I mean the alcohol, I mean the alcohol, they did get rid of all the, basically all the US alcohols off the shelf here in Canada. I haven't really been following that as much because I've mostly, uh, I mean, I'm not a big drinker of alcohol, but I mean, plus I've got enough going on. I don't need to get drunk.

I'd probably start, I'd probably go and insane if I got drunk right now, I'd probably be like, revolution in the United States. We'd bother sit down code or something if I was to get drunk. So I really don't, I don't really need to get drunk. I, I start a new Boston Tea party.

Rob Valincius: So how, let's, let's go back a little bit. How did you end up connecting with the university-based tax clinic? What was that process like? Was it, um, arduous or did, was it easier than you thought it was gonna be? And is it something that most people can utilize if they have issues like yourself?

Gabriel Morrow: Well, I don't think most people can utilize it because it's not logistically possible to extend these things outside the United States because there's not a funding for it. Also they, I mean, they just don't have the resources to do that. I mean, these tax clinics, like the University of Washington only hindered I think like 300 and something cases in 2024.

And those and US expat tax cases are complicated. But as far as connecting to it, I just got really lucky on that part because originally I called the Tennessee Tax credit. 'cause I thought, okay, part of my tax year is in Tennessee. So I reached out to the Tennessee Tax Clinic and they couldn't help me, so they just, they suggested I reach out to a tax clinic near the border.

So I reached out to a tax clinic near the border and I thought I was originally calling a tax clinic in Washington, DC but I was actually calling the one University of Washington one, and I didn't know until afterwards, until after they took my case and other things that. Oh, wait a minute. This is unique.

My situation's not typical and apparently I'm the only one who has ever done that, and that's when I started opening up a can of worms.

Rob Valincius: Well, what do you, so what do you think? Um, Mike, you know what? Explain, break it down for us if you can. What is the residence based taxation for Americans Abroad Act and why do you think it's an important fix?

Gabriel Morrow: I mean, well, that's one possible solution. There's other solutions, but at a minimum, they need to move to residency based taxation, which the goal of that is to basically make it where Americans of abroad are not taxed. Like they are now, they're only, they are only taxed on US source income when leaving abroad like most other countries do. Like if I'm in Canada, if I'm a, if you're a Canadian and you live in the United States, you do not pay taxes to Canada because that's a different country that like that. That would be like Californians paying taxes to Texas. Just because they was born in Texas, that's not rational.

Rob Valincius: Yeah.

Gabriel Morrow: So what it really does is just make it so that you pay taxes to where you geographically live in terms of your income, which is reasonable.

I mean, I am not using the worlds in, in the United States. I am not using any US services for the most part. So why should I pay taxes to the United States or have to fall taxes to the United States? If I'm not using any US services right now.

Rob Valincius: It would make sense to me that if you're not living here. That you shouldn't need to pay taxes. That, that would make sense to me. But as, uh, as my bosses say at work, 'cause we deal with a lot of bureaucratic stuff in the Medicare world here with all the rules and regulations every year it's uh, you know, when I make a joke, it's a joke.

When the government makes a joke, it's a law. So, uh, you know, that's kind of what we deal with on the re because most of the time you have these people. All over the place, high ups and Right. They're, they're making the rules for, for us peons, but they're not, they haven't been a peon in 30 years, 40 years, or never if they, they're rich.

Right? So when you're not us, you, and you're not walking through our shoes, but you're, you're making rules and regulations for us, it's never gonna be right. It's ever gonna be Correct. Right. Um, and I think that's obviously, that's how Trump even got into office in general, right? Because he was a businessman.

He wasn't a politician. That was his whole thing, right? Um, and that's why people voted for him. Like, ah, no more politicians. And I mean, at the end of the day, he, he's just like them, if not worse in most cases.

Gabriel Morrow: mean.

Rob Valincius: know, all politicians really.

Gabriel Morrow: Yeah, I mean, I personally, from looking at all the proposals and bills out there, since I've started diving deep into the tax coding stuff, my personal favorite law or proposal in Congress is HR 25, which is the, uh, fair tax proposal.

Rob Valincius: Okay.

Gabriel Morrow: And the reason I like that is it gets, it gets completely red of the IRS. And we places it with a national sales tax. But to make it fair, yeah, but to make it fair, it also includes a probate so everyone gets like a small amount of money back so that, so basically, you know, you don't pay taxes on your first like 10,000 something dollars. Basically up to the property level. You get reimbursed for your good portion of the taxes that you would otherwise pay for that.

So that's the only fair taxing, or that's the only tax thing that, in my opinion, is truly fair. And if you don't want to pay taxes, you just don't buy stuff and you can invest your money. So your investments are not taxed. But if you decide you want to go and buy a new car or something like that, you would obviously pay taxes.

Then you would not pay taxes if you hire people. So it would encourage jobs overall. It sounds like the best tax proposal out there right now, and it also gets rid of the need for people to follow you a tax return. It gets rid of the, the need for like accountants and all this nonsense.

Rob Valincius: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, um, I, I am, I am for now. Obviously, the thing that would suck. You know, outside of that, you, you put a lot of people who are accountants, uh, outta business probably 'cause you don't have as many people, uh, filing taxes 'cause the IRS is gone. But, uh, I think, I think, you know, AI is probably gonna take a lot of their jobs anyway.

I mean, in most cases you could probably literally go to chat GBT, tell chat GBT that you know, you're high level an accountant, here's all my stuff and, uh, do my taxes for me. They probably would. Do it easily. Um, you know, but, um, I agree with you. I think, uh, the abolishment of the IRS makes sense and, you know, if they do the 30%, you know, federal tax on everything, I mean, some things are gonna be way more expensive, but you're not getting, you get to decide where your money goes, you know, um, and not the government.

I mean, look how many times the US government has just lost money. You know, I mean, uh, you go to our military guys and they lost, what was it, six or $7 trillion? Like, oh yeah, we have no idea where it went. No clue.

Gabriel Morrow: it also reduces the amount of lobbying in Washington DC because right now. A lot of people don't know this, but if you do file your taxes and you pay h and r block to file your taxes or your accountant, do you know what they do with the money? You pay 'em?

Rob Valincius: No idea. Tax write off. It's.

Gabriel Morrow: Some of it actually goes straight to lobbying the Congress to keep your taxes complicated. So basically you, it's like paying the mafia to protect, uh, protect you. In all honesty, 'cause I mean, think about it. You're literally lobbying or paying a lobbyist to keep your taxes complicated, and that means that you need to pay the lobbyist more. HR Block actually is a lobbying company and they have lobbied millions to keep taxes complicated.

Rob Valincius: It doesn't shock me. I mean, they make millions off of all their stuff. Um, I, I do like, like HR Block has a free online thing, you know, and that's, that's actually what I used typically for my wifey. I just, I do her taxes. Her taxes are really easy. Um, and that when I was, before I had a business, I would do the same thing, but now.

You know, I have so many receipts and so much other shit and I'm just like, this is just too much. You know? I don't know. You know what? I can write off what I can't, what the, you know, I know taxes are gonna be different this year 'cause they increased, uh, certain things and I mean, it's just, this is why people go to school, I guess, to do it right.

That's why accountants go to school for it. But too much shit.

Gabriel Morrow: Yeah. Well, I know when the, uh. It's very complicated stuff. I know that. I mean, you do need to, I mean, I don't know if it's necessarily the schooling, but I mean, it's just, I mean, if you look at it overall, there's so many complicated parts to the task code. To fully understand every nuance of it, you'd probably take a thousand years. It's impossible to understand the task code, and there's contradictions in the tax code. It's just a big mess.

Rob Valincius: Well, it's just like our, our, our law, our law code as well, right? You know, uh, federal law, state laws, whatever. They're all. All over the place. I've interviewed some lawyers. I mean, uh, I interviewed a lawyer, a law firm in Texas, um, you know, and they were talking about how, you know, um, their divorce attorneys and, and kind of all the crazy stuff that they would have to deal with and some of the laws.

Um, Texas is a weird state though. They, they actually tend to advocate and protect men more than most states, which doesn't surprise me 'cause it's Texas. But, um. You know, there's just crazy things that, that people do and hide and do whatever they can to, you can't escape the tax man, right? I mean, look what happened to Wesley Snipes.

He couldn't escape. Um, let's talk a little bit about you personally, man. Um, you know, your, your letter, um, mentions challenges as an autistic person, right. How has that influenced the way you communicate and advocate? Um, especially something as, as complicated as the tax code.

Gabriel Morrow: I mean, oddly enough, in some ways I suspect that may have been what allowed me to spot the legal loophole that got me a lawyer because apparently no one else had attempted to ask that question or if they could use a tick tax clinic abroad, or if they did, they never really got a hold of one. So I'm assuming that may have played a role.

I know, uh, I definitely, uh, notice and spot things that most people don't. I think in my case, my autism or, well, they suspect autism. They're still getting a former diagnosis, but they suspect that it's, uh, I mean, I personally suspect that's probably why I was able to spot it. 'cause I've noticed I'm able to spot and understand legal code a lot better than the average person I know my weeding comprehension's higher, my math skill's not as good.

My, I can't remember dates as well, but in terms of. Understanding Latin and link or understanding legalese, I'm really good at understanding that compared to the average person.

Rob Valincius: That's cool. Yeah. I mean, listen, I, I'm, I'm good with numbers. That's the one thing I'm good at. I don't know if that's my superpower, but I, I, I remember my debit card number, like it's, yeah, my social security number. So, uh, I think everyone has their own little quirks too, on top. Of it. So maybe you're, you know, uh, supposed autism right.

Uh, you know, maybe connects a little bit of that to that cork that, that every human kind of has. I feel like. Um, what motivates you to keep advocating for this issue despite all the, the hurdles with bureaucratic crap that you had to deal?

Gabriel Morrow: Well, I mean part of it's just because I still have ongoing legal questions. 'cause I mean there is that government report that the US government's suppressing, and I'd like to get that to Congress and the fact that I'm the only taxpayer that used a low income tax clinic outside of the United States is not technically fair in my opinion.

So I wanna resolve that, but I can't do that until I get that report to Congress. And because of how complicated this is, it's kind of tricky getting an actual reporter to cover it. So what I've been doing, well, I now, I've got a few reporters I'm talking to, so I've made some progress there. But what I've been basically doing is reaching out to podcasters and other people trying to share my story.

I've done letters to the editors and papers all the way from. To mis, which is where I'm at now, district to Cleveland, Tennessee, and I'm, I mean, I'm just continuing to advocate,

Rob Valincius: I mean, it's all we can do. Right. You know, um, especially 'cause you still got stuff going on yourself. So, uh, you know,

Gabriel Morrow: If I didn't have ongoing legal issues, it might be a different story and I probably wouldn't be doing anything like this or I wouldn't be as involved with it. I probably wouldn't be on this podcast right now, but because I still have legal questions that need to be answered that only Congress can address, I have no choice but to continue to advocate until those questions and are answered and resolved.

Rob Valincius: So, so, you know, as we start to wind down a little bit, tell me a little bit, so what. You know, where are you at then? So if, if, um, they suppress the report, are they, are they saying that you owe them a ton of money since it's not, hasn't been filed technically, or what, what's, what's the,

Gabriel Morrow: mean, technically the IRS owes me money. 'cause I mean, I've got an $1,800 refund plus interest. The amount of interest they owe me is not correct because there's a. Because they had three years of interest that are supposed, um, supposed to be old, but it's not been added to the accounts gross problem.

But as far as it goes, in terms of like the advocating for the release of the report, I mean, I do have freedom of Information Act documents. Other in and other things from the IRS that I got from a Reddit lawyer, but that Reddit lawyer, because there's gonna be political fallout whenever this report is Congress.

They did not want their name tied to it. So I'm not gonna, I'm gonna try not to get his, have their name released publicly. I can't guarantee that someone won't leak it at the IRS or elsewhere, but I'm gonna try not to leak it.

Rob Valincius: Interesting. So what, what do you hope to get? When everything is said and done, you know, you want your, your 1800 plus interest and to just walk away, right? I mean, is that, that, or

Gabriel Morrow: Oh, I mean,

Rob Valincius: someone pay for it?

Gabriel Morrow: I mean the real problems. That job I applied for whenever I was, uh, using that tax clinic, I also applied for the taxpayer Advocate panel international position. If I'm being honest, I'd like to know whether or not that's the constitutional crisis. I suspect it is based off how everyone at the IRS is acting toward me and based off like the FOS I've got and everything, I suspect there may be a serious legal questions around that job and that job could be a constitutional crisis.

I mean, as far as I can tell, it's, I really don't have the answers to that one, but. I do know I have a lot of questions about that job posting and about this report that I'm just trying to get answers to.

Rob Valincius: Yeah. And good luck when it comes to the government, right? I mean, uh, the odds of you getting the answers when me and you might be way, way, I might be way more gray than I am now by the time you get at least a fraction of your answer. But I guess, you know, my hope for you is that you get what you need and hopefully they, they pay you your money.

Um.

Gabriel Morrow: I mean, I'm pretty sure I'll get the answers. I mean, I've got reporters working on it, or at least showing interest. I know there's one at Bloomberg and there's one at Political that's shown interest. Plus I'm showing up on more podcasts. I mean, I think it will eventually hit Congress and I suspect it will be front page news when it does these legal issues, but I just can't know the timing of it.

Rob Valincius: Well, hopefully it's sooner rather than later for you. Um, but looking forward, you know, what would you like my listeners or any new listeners, especially those that are living not abroad, to take away from your story.

Gabriel Morrow: Well, I mean, one thing I would recommend is always check your IRS transcripts and make sure that they don't flag you as possible IDT refund squad, and if they do fix it. You do not trust the IRS to just process your return when you send it in. Always baby step the IRS because they don't know what they're doing. That's been my

Rob Valincius: Yeah. And always have, and always have a copy of your, of your, uh, filing as well, just in case. 'cause you never know when they're gonna lose it, you know?

Gabriel Morrow: Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, there's, yeah, you can't trust the IRS to do their job.

Rob Valincius: That's most of the government unfortunately, you know? Um, but look, man, it was, it was a pleasure having you on. Is there anything else you'd like to plug before we get outta here today?

Gabriel Morrow: I mean, if you know any other podcasts that would have me on, let me know or reach out to me.

Rob Valincius: Awesome. I'll make sure, uh, to put that in the show notes. We'll put your, your contact info too if you, you got an email or anything, and we'll, we'll, we'll get that in there for you. Um. My podcast is Drink Clock Pod on all socials, drink clock podcast, wherever you listen to podcasts. Uh, hopefully everyone took away some interesting tax info that I honestly didn't know even existed.

Um, so we appreciate that coming from Gabriel. And, uh, hey man, hopefully you don't freeze your ass off up there.

Gabriel Morrow: All right. It is definitely cold up here.

Rob Valincius: All right, man, you have a great night. Thanks for coming on.

Gabriel Morrow: You too.

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