What Does Freedom Taste Like?

What if the conversation you weren't supposed to have was the only one worth having?

David Deighton, artist and founder of Triptych Dialogue, walks into national parks and asks strangers three political questions. Sometimes they cry. Sometimes they say the worst things he's ever heard.

He listens, then asks for one word that ties it all together, and takes that word to someone else: what does freedom taste like? What does corruption taste like?

We get into the 14th-century triptych at the V&A that started it all, a plexiglass box at the Grand Canyon that quietly exposes people's echo chambers, French snail-catching, South Street cheesesteaks, and a 40-minute friendship with a DMV guy named Fred.

David's coming to Philly this fall to install free speech pieces around the Liberty Bell, and we're plotting a Dalessandro's run.

Want to be a guest on Drink O'Clock? Send us a message on PodMatch here: podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/drinkoclock

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:36

And we are live, baby. Let's go. I guess we kind of didn't have any tech issues, which has been like a thing for me over the past like month. Uh it's this company purchased the company I that I've been using, which is this, and they're trying to force us to use something else. And I don't know, man. It's a bunch of fucking politics and it's a pain in the ass. But this is the Drink Glock podcast. I'm your host, Rob Valencius, and I have the absolute pleasure of having with me David Dayton. Is that did I say that correct?

SPEAKER_00 1:06

My wife calls me, that's her last name. I call myself Dayton. There you go. Perfect. That's her last name. I use her last name.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Okay. Okay, cool. Well, what's uh what's her last name? Her name is, well, she said Dayton. I say Dayton. Dayton.

SPEAKER_04 1:23

Now, uh, David, you're the artist and founder of triptych dialogue, man. Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. And somebody that can pronounce triptych. You know, I've I have people that go triptish, tripty, triptych.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

I mean, you gotta sound it out, you know?

SPEAKER_04 1:43

Yeah, you gotta sound it out a little bit. It's it's uh it's a it's a really cool way. I like I love it. It's like your your your style is fucking great, man. So I'm I'm happy to have you on the show. But uh look, let's let's start from the beginning here before we really kind of dig into the work that you're doing and everything that's going on with triptych. Um talk to me about growing up, man. Where'd you grow up? What was your life like? What what kind of got you like I'm a I'm a creative myself, and I know uh when you're talking creatives, we all kind of have our own things. And and what got you into you know the world of the code.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Well, you're a creative, you're doing a podcast. Are you doing more than that?

SPEAKER_04 2:18

Well, I do everything for the podcast. So I design the YouTube thumbnails, I do all, I do all I design the website. Uh there's it's it's a one-man show over here. So that's art.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

And it brings people together, you got a public, there's all the creation aspect. To me, I put that definitely in the art category.

SPEAKER_04 2:38

With AI, it's it's it's helped. Um, you know, with at least in terms of uh helping me with ideas for what the hell I'm gonna do, because you might think of an idea that AI kind of gives you a tan, and you're like, oh, I kind of like that. And then you, you know, me the way I think, I roll with my thoughts on that one specific idea, and I try not to overabuse the AI aspect because it makes it ingenuine, you know?

SPEAKER_00 3:02

It's good to bring it up, put it out there in the open. I like that.

SPEAKER_04 3:06

Because sometimes when you when you're a creative, you you think like you have uh, and maybe this is just me having ADHD. I don't know. I have I'll have a million thoughts about things, and then you know, if I use the AI, it'll help me kind of hone in exactly on on what I want to go for. And then I'm like, all right, I can do it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

I kind of get it. And there's like some book that just came out or something. I want to know what it's about. I'll put it through, see if I want to know more about it or not.

SPEAKER_04 3:32

Yeah, yeah. Hey, uh it you know, it's good with crunch and numbers and all that other shit. And uh, I've had it, you know, you could create some really good spreadsheets for you.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

And sometimes just tell you an outright lie to say it with a straight face. It's pretty amazing.

SPEAKER_04 3:48

It's it is sad. That and sometimes the numbers aren't correct either, and you gotta kind of like no that one plus one is not five, bro. That's not how this works, you know.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

With a straight face. That's amazing. Uh yeah, so about myself. Uh um, okay, I was born in the US, I was raised in France. Um, I've been always between the two countries. I'm a product of both, uh, of Europe and and uh and the US. Um, and and there must be cultural stuff I miss on both sides. Like, you know, uh at a super uh Super Bowl game, I'm kind of lost to what's going on. And uh there, you know, and I only go back to France one or twice uh twice a year, so I might be missing some cultural things there. Um so uh yeah, um and uh just being a gallery uh owner, um dealt with uh antiquarian uh old like 500-year-old manuscripts and old engravings and drawings all the way to modern art and abstract uh contemporary stuff, in which I'd put my own artwork in there, artwork on paper. And um for about uh close to 10 years now, uh been doing different art projects uh that are not with a gallery, which are you know fighting uh for democratic values, getting people to talk to one another on sensitive subjects uh like politics without punching each other and uh art installations and tons of stuff. I don't know. I'm making a website right now, and it's amazing how many projects I got going on. It's nuts. It's like, oh, I gotta have like I have 12 boxes of 12 different things going on.

SPEAKER_04 5:28

Yeah, I mean, hey, look, you're you're when making your own website is tough, man, because you're trying to figure out it's like your first impression of of yourself to whoever's you know online, right? And it's messed up. Yeah, yeah. And it's like you want it to capture people don't have attention spans anymore, right? So you you gotta you gotta have it, yeah. You gotta have it so it captures that person's attention enough to want to look for more. And that is the hardest part is getting people to stay and and find out more about you and what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

That's really good. I'm gonna put dick pics on mine.

SPEAKER_04 6:07

Hey man, if you got it from it, that's what I say.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

That should do it right there.

SPEAKER_04 6:14

I mean, if it's if it's mine, I'm not I'm people are gonna be gone in like less than a second. So it's not mine's real long.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

You'd have a special crew, you'd have a special crew.

SPEAKER_04 6:24

I'm like, these same three people keep coming back to my website. I don't know why. Now triptych. Triptych means um something that's gonna have traditionally has three panels, right? Um which I didn't I didn't know what it was until I Googled it uh, you know, before meeting you here. But you know, in in spite of that, why triptych dialogue? And in in fact, are you know, are you bringing three elements together when when you're doing all of this artwork?

SPEAKER_00 6:55

Yeah, yeah, but it you know, it's it's a lot more basic than that. It's turned into like three the panels talking to one another in a sense. But I was um several years ago, I'm at a museum in London at the Victoria and Albert Museum. It's got a lot of cool stuff. Uh, and uh, and I'm with my daughter. She's I don't know, she's like five or something. Uh and uh boom, there's this, there's this, there's a triptych. It's a religious panel from uh from the 13th century. This one is from the 14th century, and and it has all this, it's like a comic, you know, it has all these different uh imagery of hell and um and uh and uh and of heaven, and uh it has a real story going for it. However, half of the panels were missing and they've been worn away with time. You know, it's not like the centerpiece of the museum, it's really worn out. It's like, wow, that's amazing. That's a lot of the narratives and stories of our lives. You know, we we have what we present, and then there's uh what we hide, and uh, and actually everything of our subconsciousness is not even there that can be filled in anyway that we're not even conscious of. And um and that applies a lot in our conversations as well. All that dynamic of those three things are happening. So it's like, well, that that's it. There's this like dialogue between the three panels, yeah. And that's very much what happens in our own everyday lives. Um, and I wanted to bring that type of element to what happens in a conversation with a stranger, right? Some of you just spontaneously meet. Um, and uh then how do you deal like, okay, religion? Don't you know we're not supposed to talk in the US about politics or religion with people that we may disagree with, right? With strangers. So I'm like, okay, let's do that. Let's let's let's talk about politics. I'm gonna and where do I do that? You know, where do I do that? So uh, you know, that all that that came together uh really in front of that one piece, like in Epiphany when you go, aha, wow, that's it. You know, that happened there, that happened there. I was just looking at some of those pictures uh the other day for for the website I'm making and like wow, that was looking, that's what that's what I was looking at. That's what really got me going for all these uh the last uh these last six years actually on this one particular project. Uh started from one from seeing that particular piece of artwork.

SPEAKER_04 9:08

It's that's cool when it comes, like when you really think about it from a human perspective, right? And and art, it can really fuck you up. Like one second you're looking at it, the next second your brain's like, you know.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

And sometimes you don't know why. And you're thinking, oh, it's in front of a religious panel, too. It's like, oh, this is divine intervention. You know, where what's going on here? Yeah. So that's what happened.

SPEAKER_04 9:34

So so France has got to be loaded with amazing art and architecture, and just I'm obsessed with that old school. I I um I when I was in college, one of my favorite classes was um my Western European class. And that's where and you just learned a lot about, you know, the the art, uh, the black plague and and all of the the the Renaissance and and all that stuff. And I was fascinated with just all like just the sheer culture change that we had, you know, going from the dark ages into Renaissance and and just the really the creation of of a lot of that amazing artwork.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

Yeah, sure. I mean, I don't you know there's all that going on, but there's tons of stuff going on here. Like I take it like every like you're you're making a podcast, that's art, right? To me. Actually, to me, everything is is art. Uh there there's no distinction between politics and art and everything that we do with intention, that's art. Um and it's the it's it's the expression of of intention in all these different means. Uh so uh when I'm so I see art everywhere here in the US too, but underneath the lens, uh the my personal lens of looking at it. But yeah, the history on the other hand, I gotta look in a different dimension. I I live in the Southwest, uh, and uh there's there's to me, there's tons of of uh history of Native Americans. I see the pot shards, uh the cliff dwellings, uh the the religious complex uh in Chaco Historical Park with standing buildings, 400 rooms, uh, you know, several stories high, freestanding, all this stuff. And uh, you know, there's this, but it's it's it's kind of like in a sense, in it's it's broken in Anglo culture, like with uh, you know, like, oh, that's that's native culture. But it's not. I live in New Mexico and it's it's not separate. It's very much permanent uh permeates everything here. You know, there's no there's no separation. It's it has and that to me is European in a sense. It has different cultures with different um different perspectives of things, a little bit in conflict historically, that are living side by side. Uh and it happens to me more living here in New Mexico than, for example, uh living in in a place that has uh that's car dominated with uh a lot of subdivisions and everything, and people live behind walls, like of a of their subdivision or inside of their car, um in in barrios versus uh you know whatever. Uh everything's uh there's there's more division. And I find Europe has more of a uh the the cultural mesh is more interwoven with uh with all the uh with the people from lots of different European uh countries, uh the new arrivals of migrants that are living there, um, the music, uh everything. It's like living in a big city, but everywhere, even in the countryside, you know? And um I do like that. I'll be going back in a few weeks and I'll get back in that part of me, you know.

SPEAKER_04 12:50

Yeah, and the the the crazy thing that I heard, and and maybe you can attest to this, is uh the food because they've outlawed so many things over there that the food is you could you could eat whatever you want out there and you you don't get you wouldn't gain the same amount of weight than you would here. If if I heard I had some people that that they told me that they were out there for you know three, four weeks, they thought they were gonna come home and and they gain 10 pounds because they were eating pasta and breads and stuff, and they lost five pounds. I'm like, how the hell did that happen?

SPEAKER_00 13:21

You know, because they were walking, man. That's it. Yeah. I know I'll be walking all over the place. I'm gonna go to I'll be going, there's a big art show every two years in Venice with this Biennale, it's full of like uh abstract uh contemporary art. And um, it's like the biggest show on earth like this, and it's all over Venice, and uh it happens every two years. And uh, well, there, you know, there's no cars, so I'm gonna be walking tons, but I'm gonna eat, eat, eat well, and yeah, sure. I don't have to worry about it, but here I'll be eating tortillas in the US. Yeah, here I'm in Philly. Wherever I'm going.

SPEAKER_04 13:56

I'm in Philly, so I'm gonna be eating cheesesteaks.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

Oh, there we go. That's it.

SPEAKER_04 14:00

Our food's not gonna be, yeah, our food here is gonna clog some arteries, you know. Um my my boss was just out there for a work trip. I don't, I think she was in I think she was actually in Italy, but she was she was in, you know, she was in Europe. I forget where exactly she was. And uh she was saying, she's like, I ate whatever I wanted out there, and she's like, I didn't feel bad at all. Like if I would have eaten that you know, bowl of pasta here, I would have been destroyed. She's like, it was just a totally different um you know, feel. And I'm like, man, like you wonder because you see a lot of Europeans and they're they're not obese like we are over here, and it's like that it's because a lot of that shit is outlawed, man. That that the red five and 40 and all that other stuff that's like you know, just not healthy and not good for you. And uh that doesn't make you fat though, but yeah. Yeah, just it's just giving you cancer. You know, it's like it's like do you want to be obese and get diabetes, or do you want to be fine and but you get cancer? I mean, it's like or or both. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

You're but they're all that by smoking a cigarette, you know. True. And then we got yeah, you know, maybe we'll die for something else. I mean, France is uh, you know, we got uh all of our power from from nuclear uh from nuclear power. So one of those blows, we'll all die together.

SPEAKER_04 15:18

I you know what, man, and that's um you know part of the reason why I like doing this podcast is because you get so you I've interviewed people all over the world, so I get to talk about just different cultures that I don't really I'm not familiar with. Like you hear about it and you see stuff on the news, but like you know, I've interviewed people from Japan and the UK and uh I don't know, I think I interviewed somebody from China, and like you get to really kind of just get a feel for the whole world's view of things and not just this American view. And there's nothing wrong with that, but I like to be outside the the box of thinking because if you're in stuck in this box, then all we're gonna be talking about is you know, in this world, it's it's you know, it's all about division and politics and how those two interplay with each other. And it's like we're all the same, you know, we're all human. So and uh the the cool thing with art too is that everything that you see is subjective. So when you play into the human side of it, I could look at a piece, especially if it's abstract, you could look at the same piece, and we both have two totally different views about what it is or what it does. And that might be a totally different view from from the person that created the art, you know. Like, no, you're both wrong, but that's cool.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

Oh, dude, you're totally hit onto the the the echo chamber or point of view that that is totally my shtick. I I really get into that. You know, it's like grew up in one country and and be in the other, those are like two echo chambers. I'm always interested, like where those things, two echo chambers, where do they they intersect? Like, you know, your your worldview and my worldview, right? Right now we're in a space, right? Uh having this conversation. We're finding like where that intersection takes place. What are the things that we have maybe in common, but through the filter of our own personal experience, right? Of how we've experienced the world, but we're gonna find some commonalities. You're in Philly, you're in Philly. I've been to Philly, I haven't had uh one of those uh chili steak, uh, what do you call them? Uh chili Philly steaks in it.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

Yeah, yeah, chili steaks. Yeah. I look at them, I'm like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 17:21

Oh, they're delicious. But you gotta you gotta avoid the Taurus traps. You gotta go to a good place, like a hole in the good place, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, I'll do that. I'll be going. I'll be there. I'm gonna be there in uh uh September, October for a couple of months. And I will definitely, definitely have one then.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

You you you hit me up, man. We'll take you out to a good spot. Okay, that's it. That's what I wanted to hear. Now we're intersecting. This is the intersection.

SPEAKER_04 17:47

That's what we're here for, baby. To to you know, to to uh clog some arteries.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

I'll be walking afterwards, though.

SPEAKER_04 17:56

Dude, you know, you get a South Street they created, uh they called it the the Philly Pizza and uh it's or the Philly taco, I'm sorry. And someone took a uh a uh I think it's Steve's. There's a there's a place called Steve's on South Street. South Street's kind of like the spot you'd go, uh, and they just have a ton of bars. They have a ton of, I mean, it's Philly's version of, you know, kind of uh it's not center city, so you're not like in the city city. Um but you're walking around, there's like a comic book shop, there's bars, and um, you know, I think uh one of the bars was like a place that Ben Franklin owned, and and like it's it's kind of wild, but you're down there and and that's where everyone's you know walking up and down, and there's shops, there's little shops, there's stores, and uh, you know, uh there's a place, there's a cheesesteak place called Steve's, and uh, there's a um a pizza place, and I forget which pizza place it is, but they're giant, just regular cheese slices of pizza.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

And so we call it a free one now that you mentioned it on the I know, right?

SPEAKER_04 18:52

Yeah, but listen if you guys listen to this, hook us up. Um but they took a giant piece of pizza and they put a cheesesteak in it and they wrapped the slice of pizza around the the cheesesteak. And I'm like, well, one, that's genius. That might be art, probably is. Uh, but two, oh my god, you're probably eating 5,000 calories in one shot. So uh but that's that's that's South Street, that's Philly, man.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Oh man. Okay, yeah, that's the one. That's the one. But I'm coming with my Ziploc bag. It's not gonna be good the next day. Or is it?

unknown 19:27

No.

SPEAKER_04 19:28

Oh, you could definitely eat up a cheesesteak. You could definitely heat up a cheesesteak for sure.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

You can heat up anything, but I mean, is it any good the next day?

SPEAKER_04 19:35

It's not the same because you know you got the grease break, isn't it? The grease and the cheese are great when they're melty. When they're hard. Yeah. That's so hard. Yeah, it's it's when you reheat, it's not the same because the bread is super fresh and then you reheat, it's so you come out of a bar, right?

SPEAKER_00 19:53

It's been you know, you had quite a few drinks and stuff. You go have uh you go have a you go have uh one of these, and then uh, you know, it's cold, it's the winter, and it starts get what what happens? I mean, uh, do you do you do you finish it or what's it what what happens? I mean, do you toss it on the side of the road or do you do you hand it to a homeless person, or what do you do?

SPEAKER_04 20:13

A lot of times we're not leaving the aesthetic. Like if I'm gonna get a cheesesteak, I'm eating it in the cheesesteak place. So like uh like Steve's has that.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Is that messy?

SPEAKER_04 20:21

A second floor. Oh yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Yeah, yeah. It's not like you go, you you don't take it with you.

SPEAKER_04 20:26

A slice of pizza, like like one of the Lorenzo's slice of pizza, which is ginormous, you're good. You can walk around with that. That's an easy, that's an easy eat. And yeah, if it gets cold, I mean cold pizza's great. But a cheesesteak, you got to pretty much eat it there because they're they're they're huge and they're messy. Dang. Depend on how you get it. You know, depend on how you get it too.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

I mean, uh you know, when this is like uh eating eating snails, you know. I'm acting like this is like eating frog legs, which I have no problem eating. But this one I'm like, oh shit, I really, you know. Like when Americans go to France, like, I don't know if I eat those, those, uh, you know, I'll have one, I'll have one snail, right?

SPEAKER_04 21:08

Oh, it's huge, yeah. And I've had escargot. I had it, I did it um and and look, I'm not I looked at it, I was on a uh cruise. I looked at it and I'm like on a cruise?

SPEAKER_01 21:18

That's dangerous.

SPEAKER_04 21:19

I was like, I don't know if I want to eat that. That looks a little weird, but then it was in some like butter garlic sauce, and it actually was pretty fucking good.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

Yeah, it's the butter and the garlic. That's what my daughter says. She likes the butter and the garlic, dip the bread in it. I I had a I had a neighbor in the south of France. He had um we had a ditch behind uh behind the house. You know, it's kind of a natural environment, it's not like tons of products and chemicals down in this ditch. It was just an old ditch to drain drain the fields. And he'd go over there and he'd pick up snails, right? Pick up tons of snails. And then afterwards you gotta let them uh you leave them several days so that they can shit out all their goo and stuff and kind of. Cleanse, you know, you gotta starve them a little bit. And then you put some salt on them and then they froth up, right? They froth up, and there's all this, there's just you know, it it just it's just like a bubble bath, right? In the bucket. And then you gotta take them out and then and then he cooks them.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

Interesting. So what's it taste like? Well, it tastes like butter and garlic, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_04 22:29

I don't know if I can catch snails uh like and and then and then cook them, man. I don't know if I can do it. But then again, I'm from the city, so I'm not I'm not catching and cooking anything that I'm fucking doing.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Which is kind of, you know, the the weird I'm gonna say this now, but what was weird is that you know the uh the effluent from our the from the septic tanks would go into that ditch, actually. So there was quite a there's quite a bit of animal life growing in there, and there were the snails too. So there was a little bit of that extra taste in it. Yeah.

unknown 23:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

Interesting. The septic system worked so badly that there were tomato plants that were growing back in there only because you'd eat tomatoes and the seeds go through your system and they get through the septic tank that wasn't working too well, and then it'd be like this overflow going into the ditch, and then you'd have tomato plants. Wow. That's that's actually kind of funny. That's kind of funny though. That's funny, it's gross. And when you think about eating the snails from that ditch, yeah, everybody's gonna remember that one.

SPEAKER_04 23:28

Yeah, like someone someone shit out some tomato seeds and and literally created it their own plant and they have no idea.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Yeah, right. Where do these tomato plants come from? Yeah, it's all about providence, no, knowing where your food comes from. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:44

Well, you know what? I I wish we had more of that. Um, I think some of the smaller companies, they they do, they've done a better job of that. But you know, here in the US, they just throw that, oh, it's organic on it, or they throw like the buzzwords, grass-fed. And a lot of people don't realize that that they're just like labels. Like grass-fed, a lot of times it just means that the the cows were just standing there and they were like literally pouring grass on them and they they weren't able to move. They're not like uh, you know, pasture-raised cows, you know, where they got to move around and and live somewhat of a life before they were butchered, you know. And this is coming from someone that loves meat. I fucking love meat, I'll never not eat meat, you know. Uh but those labels are a lot of it here anyway, it's bullshit.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

People don't realize it. Well, they're not totally bullshit. I mean, it's just not maybe what you expect it to be, but it still follows that category, right? It better be. True. It better be.

SPEAKER_04 24:42

I mean, like they're eating grass, it's just they're fucking not going anywhere.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

They're not in that beautiful field the way you imagine them, right? Eating the pasture. Yeah. But I I live out out here in the woods. They're they're they're chewing up the national forest, you know, in the first couple of years before they go to the grazing lots uh and uh to the feedlots. You know, they're the calves are out there having a having a great couple of first years until they get rounded up and brought over, get fattened out into a feedlot, stinky as hell, a mile down the road, and uh and then off to go to the supermarket, you know, after being slaughtered and cut up and everything. But I mean, yeah, I I like to know where my food's coming from. It's pretty important. I it's really important uh in in Europe, though. Uh we get to know for a great part where the food comes from. And some of it doesn't even leave the county because it can't even pass the health regulations. You know, uh one of my favorite goat cheese I've ever ate uh couldn't couldn't was not allowed to leave the county. The guy would sell it from the back of his car. It was full of flies. The thing that looked like it would move, it had little maggots and stuff, but you would you would shave off the top, you know, and all the sides, and uh get the maggots out, and then you would eat the they wouldn't cut to the core, but damn, that was the best goat cheese I've ever had. So what is goat cheese? Like we eat goat.

SPEAKER_04 26:02

I've I've had goat cheese, but what is it made from? Like what is it? Yeah, but is it so it's just goat milk?

SPEAKER_00 26:09

It's just goat milk. And there's you there's there's ewe milk as well, like for the for the sheep and stuff. I mean, it's pretty cool because you know, when you go hiking out the in the mountains and stuff, uh the you know, the shepherds are bringing up their flocks uh and and going up in in the mountains, and you're going and and and then by August, they're way up at the top of the mountains with their with their flocks. And uh, and then then there's a festival when they come back down, back to be back in the village, and uh they bring back uh uh all uh all their their flocks back down, and uh it's a bit of a celebration, which includes wine and cheese and bread and whatever products.

SPEAKER_04 26:48

Best things for a party, man. So yeah, it's pretty special. So so you spent years as an art dealer. Um you know, yeah, 17 years. And you build a successful business. What was the moment or maybe the realization for you that kind of pulled you towards using your art as or using art in general as a as a healing tool rather than just for commerce?

SPEAKER_00 27:15

Oh, well, that was after having a commerce, I would say. Yeah. Uh I mean, just the creation of my own art and being able to, you know, to sell it, uh, that that's healing in itself, uh, you know, for me as a person, you know, it um and and it feels it feels good. And when you have this form of validation uh when people are are buying uh your artwork. Um and uh that that's healing. Um if there was any wounds, I mean, often it's just pouring out the wound onto the paper. It's always seen, you know, it's there. It's the you know, I'm doing abstract uh abstract pieces, so uh they're they're kind of instantaneous pieces coming out with all my emotions. They're not they're not very studied. Um, so it's kind of all out there on the paper. Um, so I don't know if it was it was healing, the the that part, um, the money was. The money was, but also the the appreciation people would have for it. Interestingly enough, my wife was also an artist, so she'd have her pieces in there. And uh we had two different artist names, so people didn't know we were the artists, you know, um, because people have uh this illusion or vision that they want to maintain of the they see a piece of art and they imagine an artist. And if they saw me, they'd you know, some I I did that a few times, they'd see me and go, oh, oh, that's too bad. You know, they didn't imagine me being that person. You know, half the time they were happy, half they weren't. And 100% of the time they'd be if they didn't know who the artist was, they could just imagine whoever they wanted it to be. But my my wife would also uh paint and she'd have her pieces in it at the end of each show. We do uh shows, you know, art shows. And uh we could tally who sold the most, right? Was it her or is it me? We had a little competition, and it was healing when I won. Yeah, always is, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:09

And so the aftermath.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

But most of the time I lost in these little competitions. But today, what I'm doing now, when I when you pull out the the money aspect of it, and you just you don't care about um uh who the client, if you want, there's no more client. And so they're they become uh participants in the artwork, right? It's the public, it's just somebody else. You're engaging with other people often without them knowing, they're creating the piece of art together, right? Kind of like I'm coming on your art show right here, like a podcast, and now we're participating and we're creating something together. Um, and um that right there, that's that is 100% healing and transformative when it uh when you remove the uh uh fiduciary money aspect of it. Uh and uh it's not one of uh pride or ego, it's it's more of just uh exploration, uh experimentation, um, and uh touching deep within yourself and touching you know deep inside of others as well, uh and seeing seeing what happens, uh, the microexpressions in people's faces and your yeah, yeah, that's profound for me. And uh yeah, that's pretty cool. So the thousands of encounters I've had over the last six years uh have really made the artwork that I'm making now, which is uh uh should I go for it? Should I you have to talk a little bit about it, right? It's yeah about talking to strangers about politics in in national in national parks, in free speech areas, right? Doing that this this this project where you're doing the thing you're not supposed to do, just to talk to a stranger about politics, to ask them political questions, and then just listen to them and give them the space to just express what they have to say. And then maybe that person cries because they haven't had anybody that listen to them on such a sensitive, sensitive issue, and and it comes out, or at other times you hear just the most racist thing you've ever heard, and and then you're trying not to and you're not trying to get triggered. Yeah, and you're just okay, I'm gonna listen and and then I'm gonna tell the person that I disagree with everything they said, but there you said they were angry, and I get to also tell them, you know what, I'm angry too. Maybe I'm angry now because of what you said. But I can create bridges and show people that they can create bridges with uh with the other, especially in these times where things are super polarized, finding ways for us to to bridge the political divide, not in fact or opinion, but on an emotional level to show our humanity. And um, yeah, so we don't shoot each other.

SPEAKER_04 31:58

Yeah. I mean, look, that's the whole that's the whole point of this of why I created this podcast was to be able to have conversations with people and and make this podcast a safe space. Now, if someone comes on here and you know is is blatantly a racist, yeah, I'm that's that's that's an issue. But I mean, being able to disagree with somebody or have a disagreement, but um be able to talk about it with each other like this. And you know, I've had definitely had disagreements with people on the show. Um, and we talked through it or we we uh had things that we shared that we really enjoy, and then I end up talking to them about that for 45 minutes. So I've had polar opposite things happen, but I think it's important to be able to have a healthy discussion with somebody, whether you agree or not, because I come from a time and you know, maybe you do too, where you know, we could kind of discuss things with each other and we have total polar opposite things that we believed in, but we could come into the middle and be like, all right, well, I understand what you're saying. Do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah, absolutely. All right, boom. And you can walk away from that and just and not be angry at somebody just because they have a different view than you do.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

Yeah, yeah, but we do less of that, don't we? I mean, we're a lot a lot on our digital devices, you know, we're getting uh, well, I was gonna say entertained, but really we're we're distracted, right? Uh we spend more time being distracted uh than we are uh connected to to the other, especially to people that have different points of view than than our own. Um and uh I see that more and more and more. Um and uh but I do see, I say more and more and more, I do see uh uh uh younger, uh the younger crowd uh kind of pushing back, like I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna take my phone, I'm gonna, at night, I'm just gonna go in a box and I'm not gonna open it up and I'm not gonna doom scroll. And I'm uh, you know what, I'm gonna read a book instead of doing movies on Netflix. Uh and uh what they probably haven't seen yet, are they going out to talk to people with different views? Like uh, I don't know, if somebody got a MAGA hat and I'm and they don't agree with MAGA, they don't go over and and go talk to that person. Whereas I think that's a great opportunity. I was like, oh, that guy's got a MAG hat, let's go talk. Or I'm in a national park and uh there's a whole group of Mennonites uh coming to visit the Grand Canyon. It's like, oh let me go talk to them, right? Not that I'm in opposite, well, I have different points of view than theirs. And I and I want to show uh uh that let's let's have a little talk. Not only because it's not because it's distracting or entertaining, but to to make that connection. You know, that's my podcast. It's it's uh in vivo, live, offline. Yours is is uh is is is is kind of like in between, right? It's it's offline because here we are face to face in in a sense, but we're still using technology to do so. Uh I just use my technology.

SPEAKER_03 34:50

You can edit it, shit. Yeah, you can't edit yours.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

There's no editing mine. Mine, there's no editing. I use technology, I drive to get there. Yeah, no, there, yeah, I can't edit any of that. Nope.

SPEAKER_04 35:03

I interviewed a guy, um, I interviewed a guy named Nicholas Atkins is maybe uh, you know, a couple weeks ago, and uh he had a a uh charity that he started that I thought was very unique. It was uh Pink Sox.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

Oh yeah, I heard that episode. Yeah, tell me more about it.

SPEAKER_04 35:20

Yeah, yeah. So it was pretty wild. He uh they they wanted to he so he uh he wears kilts and uh a friend of his uh talked him into wearing a kilt and he said the moment he tried it on, he said he would never wear parents ever again. So when you're when you're wearing a kilt, he decided he wanted to have fun socks because yeah, other than that, you're not gonna have black just white socks, right? So he would buy these crazy socks, and that's what he would wear. And uh people would always ask him about it. So uh they were trying to uh raise comp uh money for this for a company they were starting, and they went to like this biggest healthcare uh conference to talk to people, and they decided to uh make a bunch of pink socks um with mustaches on them, and they were handing them out to people, and when people are um, you know, they were also wearing them. So when people would ask them, they'd say, Oh, here, here's a pair. And they're like, Well, why would you hear? And it would start a conversation. So they you create a charity and it's it's a around the pink socks, and uh it's a mustache and a puzzle piece um as well on it. So what what they would do is the the whole thing is, and I think it's from Burning Man, because he went to Burning Man for like 10 years, and with Burning Man, um there is no currency. The currency is kind of you and what you have on you, and like you don't pay money for things when you're there. And uh they had these rules that were like basic human rights rules, like don't be a dick, like is one of the rules. And so he kind of took that and he took the pink socks, and now he carries pink socks with him and where you know he also wears them. And it would start a conversation where they would go, Hey, well, what are those socks? Those are pretty cool socks. And he said that you know, he would start saying, Well, hey, you know, how are you today? What's your name? My name's Nick. And it would start this conversation, goes here, here's a pair of socks, these are for you, and I'm also gonna give you another pair. And I want you to take this pair. And if someone sees you with these pink socks on, pass it on. And he started a charity though, and I thought it was so unique and cool because um I think a lot of us have gone away from starting conversations with random people and building uh just rapport with other humans. You know, we're so used to doom scrolling or texting on our phones. I mean, a lot of us, myself majorly included, would rather text than be on the phone sometimes. And uh, you know, that's not how we're uh wired as humans, right?

SPEAKER_00 37:54

But that that's I think you that's a really important point. It's the what I call a gimmick or it's the tool, right? It's the excuse to have to to invite the other to communicate, right? So how do you do that with a stranger, right? So he has the socks, right? Uh I have three non-confrontational political questions, right? Uh I also sometimes use a mic, right? I might not even be on. It's the excuse, like, okay, we're having a relationship. We know that in a mic it's going to be an interview. It's also like the table set between two people in a conversation. It creates a certain uh area space and the space of uh security, right? And well, how do we communicate with uh with somebody that a stranger without a pretext? Now, where if we're at a bar, it's a person next to us, we have, you know, there's a there's there's a cultural framework where we can talk to the person next to us because that's the space where you do that, right? Hopefully it still is, right? But uh, you know, where are these spaces, right? Now in Philly, you might have quite a few because it might happen in the line where you're gonna go get um a slice of pizza or something, right? But if uh the tourists are in line to go to the museum or something, uh in line, why aren't they talking to the neighbor beyond uh the weather or uh what you know, just the chit-chat? I mean, something profound, right? If we have the opportunity to have the conversation, I kind of object to the fact that just having chit-chat. You know, it's a limited amount of time. Why don't we do something more profound, something more to the meaning of our very existence, right? To use that, that to elevate, to elevate the conversation to another level, right? Here's a the socks are about creating uh community and uh it's about uh compassion for others. It's uh it's about love and all this stuff, right? Uh when you're talking about the weather, uh yeah, sure. Uh maybe you're creating a little bit a feel-good moment. It's a little bit too rosy for me. I like the grittiness in the food, right? I'd want to have a little bit more taste than the blandness of what comes out of the supermarket, right? I want something that has more taste in it. And the conversations that have more taste in it. Now, I'm not saying that they should be like the the snails, uh, you know, to know exactly where they're from. But but it is good to know. And so that's what I'm talking about is the flavor of things. Um, I think this is the way I see it. And we should use all our senses, right? When we're having conversations, we we use the auditory and the visual. That's it. You know, but how about touch? Now, I'm not out to asking people go touch one another. But you know, I was last couple of years, I've been going to hike uh in the winter. I go up to North Africa and go hike in Morocco. And uh, you know, the guys, we're like, hey, uh, we're we hold hands. Like that's something you do. There's much more physical in talk. We might not, we might be looking out at the the scenery without talking to one another because they're I go in this area in the pre-Sahara in the mountains before the Sahara, and we don't understand each other. But, you know, we'll hold each other's hand and we'll look out to the view and and chill out, and and we're we're together, we're having a conversation, right? That that's tactile, you know. Uh also people talk to each other a lot uh closer, so the smell is important. You can smell what they ate, right? They're having this proximity. Uh, there's a study of proximity called proxemics. Uh in America, and it's about this the distance, the cultural distance that people have between one another when they feel comfortable or uncomfortable. And uh, for example, in North Africa, people are they're comfortable with being close to one another. And in the US, uh it's the distance is much, much further. You know, it's like three feet away, you know. And if you go to Australia, it could be up to five feet. That's the comfort zone. You walk into that space, you turn into personal space, you know, when you say personal space, so that's important in communication, right? And it was the smell, right? And also uh, you know, taste as well. And and I and I use and I use uh taste in in uh uh as an important tool as well, but more of an abstract one where um I ask people, you know, I I talk to all these people, I ask them the same three questions all the time. And uh after the three questions, uh I ask them to give me one word that brings it all together. That's the hardest one, you know, one word brings it all together. And they might say, you know, remind you, I'm talking politics or whatever. So they'll they'll tell they'll say the word is corruption, uh, the word is cohesion, the word is hope, or whatever it is. And I take those words and I ask other people, another group of people, to tell me what uh take the same words, these hundreds of words that I've accumulated over the years, and one after another chronologically, I have other people that I meet tell me what that word that I come up with from that list. So let's say it's cohesion. What does cohesion taste like? What is freedom taste like? Uh some people the word is shit show. So I say, well, what what does that taste like? And that disruption, right, uh is is a way that we could also uh use for uh an abstract way also in communication for getting straight to something quite deep. Uh if you start then people might think you're crazy, but if you get them in the right place, in the right space, uh and you use that, you get straight into this zone, this artistic, almost philosophical zone where you're getting deep into things. I invite everybody there to try that out. If they got, you know, if somebody says something awkward and then you ask, just say, Well, what does that that word taste like? And you're gonna get somewhere going, you'll be like, What? That's a human what what do you mean? And then from there, you're sure you're gonna go somewhere deep. Right away.

SPEAKER_04 43:54

Yeah, that's a unique way of of looking at it. Uh when I was interviewing Nick, he said something that was along those. Lines in that what when he walks up to someone or a stranger that he's never talked to before instead of saying it's nice to meet you, he says, or he said you you should try to say something like it's nice to see you. Whereas and a lot of people, because a lot of people feel unseen. And it's it's just a because when you say uh it's nice to meet you, that's what everyone says, right? But when you say it's nice to see you, um it it almost unlocks something in in people that uh otherwise wouldn't be unlocked, you know, by by just saying the normal greeting or whatever. Um but it's it's cool to think like think about that, right? It's just all these different ways we communicate, but there's just ways you can communicate outside the box. Yeah, and I think that's that's important. I mean, look, I I talk uh the wifey's behind the green screen back here, so she's probably gonna laugh at me, but um I'm a talker and I like to probably talk way too much and meet new people. It's it's uh it's you know, it's sometimes it's at the detriment of of my time. Uh I was at the DMV last week because in Pennsylvania they were, you know, they required you all to get a real ID here. And I don't know if it was national or whatever. I think maybe it was a select number of states, whatever the fuck it was. I I changed my uh I did it some things and I'm like, all right, fuck it. I'll just go finally do it. So I went in, I went in. You think of the DMV, you think you're gonna be sitting there for a while, right? So go up, give the guy my stuff, and he's like, All right, sit down, I'll call your number. I was sitting there for like five, six minutes, and I got called up, and I'm like, oh shit, this gotta be a quick trip. Sit down and uh, you know, I don't know if he's gonna find this or listen to it at some point, but uh I sat down in front of Fred, who's who's an older DMV guy. He was a little curt in the beginning, right? He was like, you know, because he's probably used to people who just sit down, give him, give him his stuff and bounce, and or they're or they're a dick to him. And uh look, I worked retail for a long time in my life, not now, but I am I try to be nice to everybody because I know what it was like when you're talking down to when people treat you like shit. So I try not to do that wherever when whenever I'm out. And uh so before I leave, so so I'm talking to Fred, and and remind you, there's a room full of people. Now the room's even more packed. I probably talked to Fred for 40 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 46:20

Get out of here.

SPEAKER_04 46:21

And I know everything about Fred. I know about his grandparents, I know about his great-grandparents that that uh were were fighting Nazis. I know about his brother-in-law and his sister-in-law and his sister and his brothers and and nieces and nephews. I know that he's gonna retire in two months. I know all of that shit. And I just let him talk. I one thing I for me, it's just a uh sometimes people just need to talk. So I just let him talk, man. You know, and I interjected a couple times, but I let him just talk and he just kept going. And I'm like, all right, you know, I I should probably get back to work at some point. Um, and then eventually that it died down, and I was like, hey man, you know, congrats on retiring on your terms. Not everybody gets to do that, and have fun in retirement, man. Crack a beer, you know, we were laughing, and I was like, You have a great day. And then I had to go get my picture taken, which I I was like, oh great, so that's gonna add time, but it wasn't too bad. Uh, but I laughed because how many people would do that? You know, you finally get you go, you run through a DMV, you're quick, and then little did I know I was gonna meet this guy and have know all about his life in 40 minutes, you know. But I think more people did that.

SPEAKER_00 47:29

You were there, you were you listened for you listen. Yeah, and I think I think if you're not gonna do that. Unless he does that every freaking day.

SPEAKER_04 47:36

I hope he does it. I don't know if he's retiring because he's not the most productive DMV worker. I don't know. Uh, if you're listening to this, Fred, you'll have to let me know. But um, I I just um I think if more people did that, uh, you'd also probably understand what other people are going through because some people just maybe like that. Was my initial impression was he he looked miserable. And then I walk away and I'm like his best friend, you know? So maybe more people just talk to Fred a little more.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

I vacillate with that. Some people look for just uh an ear so they can just go on and on and on about whatever. I don't I like to ask questions, so at least it could be stay on a subject I might be interested in, or I might, you know, be part a participant in the conversation. Some people just have something that they just need to say and just go on and on and on and on, and you don't want to hear it. That I find profoundly annoying. I gotta tell you. Yeah. But I do hear what you did there is that act of kindness. And also because it was fun, and you know, hey, what you know, what the heck was it was if it was a good story, then yeah, that's worth listening to.

SPEAKER_04 48:41

Oh, dude, he was telling me about how his ancestors were like, you know, in they were in Europe and they were uh like rounding up Nazis and fucking killing Nazis, and then they ended up getting um rounded up and they they put him in a firing line and they got killed. And yeah, I was like, holy shit, man. Well, that's a pretty full cut. I loved shit about like World War II and all the craziness. And you know, I was I'm just like, what are the odds I would know all of this about Fred at the DMV? You know, uh shout out to Fred.

SPEAKER_03 49:12

Oh man.

SPEAKER_00 49:14

But I like how you I like how you presented it. I it did touch a little bit of a nerve like a trigger for me when it comes to conversations where people just go on and on and on. But this wasn't the case, so that's cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:26

Um now, you know, I know we're we're hitting that point here, but tell me real quick and and tell my listeners, because they might not know, you know, what is uh what is abstract art? And you know, um obviously abstract art can be a lot of things. Uh in your point of view, what is it? And you know, what does it unlock in people? Um, you know, because it's a representational style of art, um, right? Like it you're kind of presenting an idea that's might be different in in because when you think of art, right? Most people think of a painting on the wall.

SPEAKER_00 50:02

Yeah, yeah, sure. Well, uh, you know, when we're talking about um the uh the taste of a word, that's abstract. It's as simple as that. So you can extrapolate that type of association. It's not just making any one uh any type of association, but that that that's abstract in itself. So that applies to to sculpture, to poetry, to to performance pieces, to theater, uh to all different to all different kinds. Uh to me, uh abstract is is like a is a is a doorway that you don't necessarily see, but has uh like an epiphany that comes with it where you have a realization with the experience of the piece that takes you somewhere else very quickly, not into a landscape or anything like that, but takes you into a thought, into an area, space of your mind where you weren't before or that you forgot. And uh they're the mechanisms, abstract art are the mechanisms that take you there.

SPEAKER_04 51:11

Do you have a uh a favorite thing, a favorite piece that you've done?

SPEAKER_00 51:17

Um yeah, so uh there's one I uh I really that that was it was really cool. I'm on the Grand Canyon, on the Grand Canyon Rim. Uh the park very kindly got me this amphitheater for a couple hundred people overlooking the not that it was full, but it was overlooking the canyon rim there. Uh um and um I brought a uh a box uh on a museum stand, a glass, plexiglass box, just like you see in a museum on a on a black stand. And inside of that box I put a sculpture. I had lots of different things to put in it. Just any old thing would have done. And people came up and wondered what the heck this thing was, and um and I'd come down from uh from the steps from the seating. They didn't know I was the artist, you know, I could hear what they had to say. Hey, uh, you know, what do you think that is? And they'd say, I have no fucking clue. I said, Well, you know, I said, well that that there, that's that's that's that piece of artwork in there is a representation of me, it's a representation of you, it's a representation of somebody. And I'm not too concerned about that. My piece is the glass case that's around it, right? And this is abstract, right? It's the glass, it's the glass piece around me. Like, what? What do you mean the glass piece around? It's like that's plexiglass actually, so it doesn't break and shatter and all this stuff. Yeah, and uh and it's like, yeah, that right there is that represents to me like our worldview, the echo chamber that you were talking about earlier. That's what it represents. And my question is if you're in in there, if you're that statue inside, if I'm that statue inside, I I'm looking out. I think my worldview is so expansive that it's actually quite limited, right? By the box. It's much smaller than I think it is. And in my hand, I have a little spice jar, a glass spice jar, and I have a little statue in it. I say, look at this one, this is an even smaller echo chamber. And I and I ask them, so how does this one that I'm holding in my hand enter the one in the box? The one in the museum case here with it. How does that how do you how does it get in? Or should it? And then you can see people go, oh, should I what? I have an echo chamber, I have a point of view, I uh what what there's I have a worldview, and it's smaller, all these things happen in a very short amount of time. So a door opens, not every time for sure, but for a lot of people it's like immediately that entrance takes place, and now we're thinking about echo chambers, points of view, the intersection of those two points of view, like you and I did today. Like where's that insert intersection take place? That that was uh that was a very powerful uh moment with uh a lot of people that never would have been exposed, probably by this type of art, that got to see that and have an experience, and we had very deep conversations just right there on the spot. Uh, within just a matter of seconds. We were in a deep area, not looking at each other's eyes, we were looking off in the distance and sharing deep, deep, deep aspects of themselves to me and back and forth. Uh and uh that that that that connection is is worth a lot to me. That's better than all the paintings I've ever sold.

SPEAKER_04 54:52

That is actually really, really good. Um, I love that con that's like a such a good conversational piece. Um let's end on this. Yeah. Um I I think uh I think this is this would be important if I didn't uh ask you about this. So you've had thousands of these encounters, right? You dealt with thousands of people. Um what have you come to believe about human beings that you didn't believe before you started doing this?

SPEAKER_00 55:27

That's constantly evolving. And right now there's so many things that went through my head. Uh I I don't have a I don't have a direct answer that that one you're gonna have to bring out an art installation for me to open that door really quickly because that that question didn't do it.

unknown 55:42

Okay, all right.

SPEAKER_04 55:43

And look, you're an artist. I wouldn't expect the words, man. I I would expect the visuals at least, right? Or or something along those lines.

SPEAKER_00 55:51

Yeah, that one hasn't happened to me yet.

SPEAKER_04 55:55

Well, look, uh I expect to see or hear of a really cool exhibit that that some random podcaster gave to you on a podcast.

SPEAKER_00 56:06

Well happened.

SPEAKER_04 56:09

Uh well, look, man, it's it was a it was such a pleasure chatting with you, dude. Um tell my listeners plug away. Where can they find your stuff? You got anything coming up uh that you want to invite people to? Hit hit them, hit them hard.

SPEAKER_00 56:22

Well, I'm gonna say that what we did today, right now, that we just experienced one of the pieces together. So you don't have to really look much further than what we did right here and what you listened to without even knowing it. Hopefully, some doors uh are open. I'd love to hear um their comments as well and open some doors for me. Um and for that, um, they can either go to uh YouTube channel uh in the digital world and go to triptychdialogue, like trip t y c triptych dialogue d I A L O G U E. Type that in in YouTube. You can send me a comment through there, or you can go by the same name, triptychdialogue.com, and uh go to my website uh and contact me through there um and just see all different stuff I'm putting up on there all the time. Awesome, man. Hopefully, no dates. And I'm gonna install some things in your town, actually. I'm gonna be there for two months. I'm gonna go do stuff around the Liberty Bell and all that stuff in all the free speech areas that you guys got over there for a couple of months. So there'd be uh there'd be like half a dozen installations in the in that area uh for uh was that fall?

unknown 57:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:38

Hey, make sure you fill me in. I'd love to see some of your stuff, man.

SPEAKER_00 57:41

Well, I want to see where that place Steve's is or whatever it was.

SPEAKER_04 57:45

It's uh South Street, South Street's the one of the better places to go because you can get a a a real feel for for Philly down in South Street. All right. Um Delasandro's is the best cheesesteak place now. They're not on South Street, they're kind of a little outside the city, but they have the best cheesesteaks in the city. So you write that down if you're if you're gonna be coming down. Is that on a wedge?

SPEAKER_00 58:06

Is that on a triangular wedge? It is like this, it is. I think yeah, I think I've been there. Yeah. And there's a seating outside most of them there's uh goes wraps around. There's always the line. There's always the line. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:17

Uh Del Sandro's has the best cheesesteaks, hands down. And uh, I haven't had it in a while, and now I'm like, I can feel my mouth uh saladating for a cheesesteak. Uh but hey, look, my podcast is drink a clock pod on all socials, drink a clock podcast, wherever you listen to podcasts. And uh it was a pleasure having you on, man. Let's do this again soon.

SPEAKER_00 58:38

All right, man. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_04 58:40

Have a great night, man.

SPEAKER_00 58:41

You too.